Chapter Two begins with one of the great, inscrutable moments of the novel: Nick and Tom's journey to New York City through the Valley of Ashes, past the eyes of T.J. Eckleburg. It's a fantastic moment in the novel, one of the great moments in modern American Literature. According to the explanatory notes at the back of my edition, the description is based on"the Corona dump in the borough of Queens, a swamp that was being filled with ashes, garbage, and manure." Fair enough: even still, this is a bizarre, surreal moment and image—a farm of ashes inhabited by "ash-grey men," bordered by a "small foul river" and overseen by a giant billboard of eyes—eyes in glasses, no less. What the heck is it doing in the novel? Fitzgerald offers no explanation—it's just there in all its weird beauty. So...
1. What do you make of the possible meaning, purpose, significance of this place? Why is it here? Now, you can look at the many study guides on the web and they will give you some answer—but don't look, okay? Take a shot—the Valley of the Ashes and T.J. Eckleburg's eyes "about half way between West Egg and New York"...their meaning in the book.
2. Tom...ole Tom, Yalie, filthy rich polo player, reader of "scientific stuff," philanderer, protector of the white race. He looms large in the narrative—one of the most evocative characters in anything we will read this year. What do you think of him? How would you characterize him? Is he a total d-bag, or can we find grounds for sympathy for him? Go ahead and quote from the book in your response.
3. Every character in this novel is so vivid—with the exceptions, arguably, of Daisy, Gatsby, and, perhaps, even Nick. But certainly clear to the eye is Myrtle Wilson. One of the mysteries of the book is why would Tom cheat on someone as attractive as Daisy—and with someone like Myrtle. Or perhaps it is no mystery at all. Make some case for Tom's affair with Myrtle. What can or does Myrtle offer Tom that he may not be able to get from Daisy?
As always, write a couple hundred words here. Feel free to respond to what others say. Very soon I will be asking you to respond to your classmates as a matter of course: I will ask you to make repeated visits to the blog. Of course, I hope you do come back here to see what is being said. For now you don't have to—but you soon will.
Finally: a clip from the 1974 movie starring Robert Redford as Gatsby, Mia Farrow as Daisy, Sam "Law and Order" Waterston as Nick, Bruce Dern near perfect as Tom, and Karen Black as Myrtle. Skip ahead three and a half minutes and see how the film envisions the Valley of Ashes and the Eyes of T.J. Eckleburg. Or just watch the whole clip if you want.
See you all tomorrow.
1.This is only a theory, but could the ashes signify the rebirth of Nick as he travels from the Mid-West to NY? Just as a Phoenix is revived from its ashes, Nick is traveling to NY with a sense of rebirth and renewal. The eyes, may signify the way the city watches over all with strange fascination, yet no one person looks up to recognize them as well. Just a theory.
ReplyDelete2.Tom is an interesting character. He originally struck me as a largely flat character with no depth and no remorse, but after reading the second chapter he begins to take shape. I was intrigued by the way he forced Nick out of the car when going to see his mistress, "He jumped to his feet and, taking hold of my elbow, literally forced me from the car. 'We're getting off," he insisted..." His forcefulness exudes a certain confidence, and later on in the chapter when he breaks Myrtle's nose, I realized their may be more to his character than at first look. There is something going on underneath the machoman archetype that is causing him distress, the reason he isn't happy with his marriage, or why he drinks so much, or why he is cheating on his wife. There is something greater going on we may find out later on.
3. Myrtle seems much more reckless and spontaneous than Daisy, and she is in the same position as Tom, in that she is unhappy with her marriage. She buys a puppy without a second guess, changes clothes three times a day, and seems much more sexually active than Daisy. The recklessness Myrtle possesses is the reason Tom would cheat on Daisy with her, because he knows that she wouldn't second guess it.
1. Like Cam, I'd like to preface this by saying that this is merely a theory, but in my opinion the "city of ashes" is put in the book as a contrast to the life that Nick and his acquaintances are living. Whereas like on Long Island seems so high class and carefree, this area just a ways to the west is a desolate, slow moving, and dark by comparison. What better way to accentuate the enormously expensive lifestyle that we witnessed in chapter one than to show it's polar opposite.
ReplyDelete2. Tom seems to me to be exactly the way he is described in the book. He is a hulking (yes that is intentional) man of "Nordic" descent who, yes John, seems to be a complete and total d-bag. I haven't seen one hint of a redeeming quality thus far in the novel, but this is not to say that I never will. There is still so much we don't know about Tom as a character that for all I know Tom could be an absolute saint, even if he is a racist bastard who got drunk and broke his mistresses nose. In conclusion, for the moment, I really, REALLY, don't like Tom.
3. As we talked about today in class, for now Daisy seems to have no weight to her. She seems almost like an empty shell, and this is accentuated around Tom. After meeting Myrtle, it is clear to me that she brings something to the table that Daisy certainly does not. Myrtle has an abundance of the same "weight" we were talking about with Diasy, and I don't intend this entirely to refer to her fat, but mostly to refer to her personality. She has such an aura about her in her description that serves to prove to us, the readers, that she has quality that Tom hasn't found in Daisy.
1. I really thank that this place definitely shows the unglamorous parts of New York, the boring and dirty (and seemingly foul) and very dull side of New York that maybe reminds Nick a lot of Minnesota. He’s running away from the dull and boring Mid-West to the shiny and new New York City. But here he is, sitting in a car, driving through the Valley of Ashes, which seems to me, just like everything he’s been running away from.
ReplyDelete2. With, Tom… I don’t know. I really cannot get myself to feel any sort of good feelings towards Tom—no sympathy, no likeability. To me, he reminds me a lot of one of those dense guys who has no care for anyone else’s wants but his own. I agree with Cam, however, that he seemed flat at first, but he’s slowly growing more as a character. He’s definitely hiding something from Nick and it’s something big, which causes a gap in his character. I’m not sure what it is, but especially when he flat out slaps Myrtle, it shows us that something in his marriage with Daisy sets him off very quickly. At first he really came off as a big bully-type, but it seems like something may have happened with Daisy that really hurt him or made him angry, since all Myrtle did to deserve a broken nose from him was just mention his wife’s name.
3. With Myrtle, she seems to be one of those girls that is the definition of flirtatious. To me, especially when I watched the above clip, she just made Daisy look like an annoying housewife. Myrtle is not bored at all with the lavish lifestyle Tom leads, unlike Daisy. Myrtle is impulsive and brash and doesn’t seem to give in to Tom’s every order and actually seems to boss him around a bit. This is something that I would speculated that Daisy wouldn’t do, so maybe Tom finds this assertive quality in Myrtle to be the most important and attractive quality to him.
1. I agree with Cam in that the city of ashes is a symbol of realization and rebirth. The contrast between what Nick has seen of the Buchanan's lifestyle on Long Island compared to this city of ashes is quite profound, and the description of the city of ashes serves as Nicks realization that not everyone lives the way the Buchanan's do. This brings Nick back to reality.
ReplyDelete2. As John said, Tom is a total d-bag. He is racist, rude and egotistical. So far in the book, all we have seen of Tom are all of his terrible qualities and the appalling way he treats his wife. However, I don't think Fitzgerald would make a character this obvious and easy to read. I sense that there is some secret lying within Tom that makes him so terrible. Tom obviously got very upset when Mrs. Wilson brought up Daisy and subsequently punched in the face. To me, this seems like Tom really does feel guilty for what he is doing to Daisy and he just can't bare to have someone bring up her name and remind him of it. Regardless, punching your mistress, or any woman, is not the way to go. Like Andrew, I really do not like Tom at the moment.
3. I think that Myrtle appeals to Tom precisely because she is not like Daisy. With the lifestyle he lives, I am sure Tom has been used to lots of women like Daisy who are total airheads and lack no substance, but Myrtle is the exact opposite. Instead of acting childish like Daisy, Myrtle is a grown, independent woman. Her physical characteristics also set her apart because she isn't the stereotypical beauty like Daisy. She is very exuberant and fun, so it makes perfect sense to me that Tom would want to see her.
1. I agree with Molly and Andrew in that the “valley of ashes” is Nick’s reality. Nick was bored of his reality, so he moved to New York which was his idea of excitement. He’s living in a bubble of glamour and this image shows that a few steps outside of this bubble is what Nick was trying to move away from. Also, because the use of the word ashes, I thought (this is really stretching it) that it could represent the fact that Nick will eventually be burned out this world and have to go back to this place of reality.
ReplyDelete2. I think there is nothing redeeming about Tom, and this thought was only reinforced by this chapter. In this chapter, I saw more of Tom’s haughtiness and him thinking he is better than everyone else because of his wealth and his place in society. Especially when Mr. McKee says he wants to do more work in Long Island, and Tom says that he should do “George B. Wilson at the Gasoline Pump.” Tom is making fun of his mistress Myrtle’s husband in that moment and making it clear who has more power and who is the better man.
3. In the previous chapter, Daisy did not show any interest in Tom and she was cold towards him. I think that Tom wants someone to be interested in him who is lively, and Myrtle is just that. She says when she started the affair with Tom she kept thinking “You can’t live forever” and she exhibits a liveliness and spontaneous air that Daisy doesn’t have. I also think that Tom is the kind of man who would have someone else on the side. I think it adds to his power that he has the ability to say “look what I can do and I can get away with it.”
I think the significance of the Valley of Ashes very much ties into Tom's mistress, Myrtle, living there with her husband. Up to this point, every house, every lifestyle, every person has been luxurious or lived a luxurious life to some extent. Well, luxurious pertaining to material things. But, not everyone has been happy, and Tom and Daisy are a perfect example of that. But Tom has this mistress, Myrtle, who lives in the Valley of Ashes, and she is poor as can be. But what Tom really wants, as far as we know, is Myrtle. He finds what he really wants in a poverty-stricken, depressing place. I think the reason for making Myrtle so poor is to signify that theme of appearance versus reality. Tom has the wealth, but inside that front, that false skin that is his family and his happy life, there is like John said chaos and instability. And then there is what Tom desires in this awful, dirty place. The outside appearance does not affect the fact that he wants Myrtle.
ReplyDeletePersonally I do not like Tom. I find Tom ignorant, but above that I see Tom as thinking he is above everyone else. Tom knows he has the wealth, and he uses his wealth as power. It gives him this mindset that he can do whatever he wants. He blatantly has a mistress that his wife knows about, and yet he does not care. He shows respect to no one, because he feels he doesn't have to. He even hits his mistress because he believes he has the power to do so. "'Daisy! Dai-' Making a short deft movement, Tom Buchanan broke her nose with his open hand." While I do not like Tom, I can have a little sympathy for him. It is obvious that Tom is lost, and that he is having trouble knowing what he really wants. Again, he uses his wealth to hide the fact that he is lost, but he is lost nonetheless.
I think Tom cheats on Daisy for Myrtle because she offers something that Daisy does not offer: dependence. Myrtle is so obviously dependent on Tom, coming from poverty and constantly using his wealth to buy herself things. Between Tom and Myrtle it is about the only thing that they talk about. And yes, Daisy is dependent on Tom, but not nearly to the point that Myrtle is.
1. My theory is that the valley of ashes represents the end of an era in Nicks life. It is the final reminder of the life he might have led had he not gone to New York. The dark and depressing atmosphere would have suppressed Nicks desire for adventure and excitement. Also I think that the way Fitzgerald described the area with the "fantastic farm" and "the forms of houses and chimneys" almost represents the Midwest and were Nick is actually from. As for Dr. T.J. Eckleburg's eyes, it's almost as if his eyes represent the clear and new future that Nick has set up for himself. Or perhaps they represent some sort of familiarity to Nick and act as a reminder for where he came from.
ReplyDelete2. I don't hold any sympathy for Tom. Although we haven't gotten very far in the book, he hasn't done a single thing to earn the readers sympathy. And I find him hypocritical as well. Catharine says "Its his wife that's keeping them apart. She's a Catholic, and they don't believe in divorce", I'm not sure if Tom came up with that lie but it's like he's making excuses for not just staying with Myrtle. Then when Myrtle is shouting Daisy's name, Tom hits her and breaks her nose. However he always seems so unhappy with Daisy so I'm confused as to why he can't make a decision about which woman to chose, since he seems to have no problem making other decisions that aren't very important.
3.I think that Tom sees a lot of himself in Myrtle in terms of someone who is unhappy with their marriage but also has some backbone and isn't afraid to express her opinions. I think because he sees himself in her, he can be a but more relaxed because he knows she would take over the power role if she needed to. With Daisy, Tom seems to be very forceful and in constant control because she seems to lack depth and doesn't have the ability to stand on her own.
1. Like many before me, I think that the 'Valley of Ashes' brings Nick down from his perfect bubble when he visited Tom and Daisy. it is a perfect contrast between Tom's beautiful mansion and this depressing place. The valley also makes me think of Daisy's life with Tom. Their lives may seem pretty good from an outsider's perspective but in reality their relationship is like the valley of ashes, depressing and plain ugly.
ReplyDelete2. I thought that there was more to Tom than the first chapter reveal, but the more I read, the more I realized Tom is not the kind of person I would like to call my friend. I believe he is selfish and very self center. He thinks that he is capable of doing anything and get away with it. But what I think I find the most insulting about Tom is the way he shows no remorse about cheating on Daisy. He displays it like its an honorable thing, "His acquaintances resented the fact that he turned up in popular restaurants with her."
3. I think that the whole reason Tom is with Myrtle is because he wants to show that he cans. He wants to show that he is so powerful he is not ashamed of who he is and he is proud to display it. Also because it makes him feel better to know that he is able to keep someone as beautiful as Daisy under his control. I believe that it is also possible that Tom is with Myrtle because she is like him in some ways. She stands up to Tom and proves that like him, she is powerful and proud. She is very unlike Daisy, who lives with Tom's abuses without standing up for herself.
I know that those of you who have written already most likely won't read this, but I feel compelled to say, "Bravo!" Good, thoughtful insights, particularly about Myrtle. And as Christine and Tanja remark, there is something strange about Tom breaking Myrtle's nose for saying Daisy's name. Why should he care what she says about Daisy? Yet it seems he does. Could this help support on some level Sam's assertion that Tom is, indeed, "lost", despicable as he may be?
ReplyDelete1. Honestly, I have no idea what the valley of ashes represents. I guess in a way it could signify the depression of all the characters. You have Nick who felt stuck in a rut which lead to his move to New York. Then there's Tom and Daisy who clearly have a relationship that's more complex than we even know. Once you add in Myrtle to the mix then all you can really say for sure is that it's one big mess.
ReplyDelete2. Tom is clearly a manipulative man. He uses everyone to feed his ego and to possibly convince himself that he is living a life that is worth living. Clearly Tom and Daisy have a relationship in which neither one is truly fulfilled. Although it would be easy to write him off as a pompous asshole, you have to wonder what is he not getting from his marriage? Is he looking from emotional support from Daisy and she's too closed off? Or is he the one who checked out? Is his affair with Myrtle a result from Daisy's "insincerity?" When Catherine says to Nick, "And he's the first sweetie she ever had," it says to me that a big reason for his affair is to find the emotional support and love that's lacking from his marriage. But on the other hand, his anger from Myrtle saying Daisy's name makes me think that he wishes he was fulfilled by his marriage and that just Daisy is enough for him.
3. I basically just said this but this chapter makes me think that Daisy is at fault for their lackluster marriage. Tom is clearly seeking something or is lost in what his life has become. He seems to be seeking more than he can find in his marriage. I think he's caught between keeping up appearances with Daisy and their lavish lifestyle and then his emotional fulfillment with the less attractive Myrtle.
1. I agree with the multiple others who said that the valley represents reality for Nick. He described the Midwest as the “ragged edge of the universe.” It seems like this valley is more deserving of this title. It’s dirty, ashen, and poor. Yet, Nick and Tom are immune to it. They go to an apartment and have a pretty lively party. What’s more exciting that someone getting a broken nose? Tom can bring his lifestyle with him wherever he goes. Nick gets his excitement even in the most desolate places if he’s with the right people. As for the eyes, I wonder if they don’t act as a sort of Big Brother, looking down on these poor ash shoveling people and keeping them in their place.
ReplyDelete2. I think Tom is sort of a big jerk. He cheats on his wife, he breaks Mrs. Wilson’s nose, and he advocates for white supremacy. That doesn’t mean there isn’t more to him though. No one is born a jerk. There are always circumstances. He, like Daisy, has a need to be thought of as Great. “I’ve got a nice place here,” he remarks about his home. Then, he shows his mistress off to Nick like Daisy tried to show off her baby. “…his determination to have my company bordered on violence.” Is he just a really lonely guy who was brought up poorly (or not at all)? He also keeps this strange set of morals in not allowing his mistress to say his wife’s name. It’s as if he’s trying to protect Daisy, ironically. I don’t dislike him, I just think he’s sort of pathetic.
3. Myrtle is described as having “an immediately perceptible vitality about her as if the nerves of her body were continually smoldering.” She’s not like Daisy, a sort of weak willed woman who lives to show off. Myrtle shows off in a different way. She shows off by being almost obnoxiously vibrant. Daisy is like Tom’s Minnesota, and Myrtle is Tom’s New York.
1. I thought that the Valley of Ashes was representing the true nature of East Egg, without the mask. As we talked about in class today, everything in East Egg (shown by Tom and Daisy's house) is just for show, for example the sundials which there is no point in using. This only serves to hide the hard truth of life in East Egg, which the people are unwilling to accept. The Valley of Ashes, however, is just as devoid of happiness but there is nothing there to mask the poor people's anguish.
ReplyDelete2. This new chapter just seemed to reinforce my opinions about Tom. He pushes Nick into hanging out with him, looks down and taunts Myrtle's husband, whimsically buys dogs,and hits his mistress to top it all off. He so casually hits her too: "Making a short deft movement, Tom Buchanan broke her nose with his open hand". I don't have any sympathy for him because he doesn't seem to take responsibility for his actions and acts very much like a schoolboy though he should be matured at his age.
3. I thought that Tom cheats on Daisy with Myrtle because he believes that he can have total control over her without any retaliation. She is poor and plump with a dim witted husband, and it seems this would be the type of person Tom would just pounce on. He wants complete subordination out of everybody, as shown when he forces Nick to come with him and Tom's hitting of Myrtle, but Daisy doesn't want to comply. She is a free spirit, but I think that Tom doesn't just plain out leave her because that would cause talk and he wants to have specifically Daisy as his pet.
1) To me, the ashes represent the obvious and substantial problems that loom over Tom's life. Tom is in a terrible marriage and an abusive relationship with his mistress, yet he spends his time flashing his wealth and pretending that all is perfect. The mansion represents his world that he believes he lives in and the ashes represent the horrible condition of his real life. By taking Tom to show him "his girl", he is exposing a side of his life that is absolutely awful.
ReplyDelete2) I find it very hard to sympathize with Tom. From the minute we meet him on the steps and he arrogantly boasts about his mansion, to his extravagant affairs with a woman who he abuses, while leaving a wife and child back home. “Two shining arrogant eyes had established dominance over his face and gave him the appearance of always leaning aggressively forward.” Tom has no regard for anyone but himself and he justifies it by simply believing that no one else can compare to him. The only sad part of Tom is that there is clearly part of him that realizes how pathetic he really is.
3) I believe that it is not Myrtle who appeals to Tom, but the idea of a mistress that thrills Tom. Tom is never satisfied with his lifestyle, and he always craves more. His wife and child aren’t enough for him so he searches to find that satisfaction and finds it in Myrtle. The reason Tom hits Myrtle is because she reminds him of the home he must return to. Even if Myrtle is overweight and has a horrible personality, Tom is going behind Daisy’s back and he loves that.
This Valley of Ashes is a transition place between the rich West Egg and New York. I think it is a good contrast to remind us readers that the lower class world still exists and is actually right outside of these extravagant, exciting, lively cities. As I was reading what came to mind was, “wow, how can people like Tom and Daisy carry on the lives that they do without a care in the world for anyone, while there are people who work really hard to make a living and who live in extremely unhealthy places.” It is absolutely ridiculous that the rich who drive by every week to go to New York City do not even stop to think about the different life styles. Tom, Daisy, and the baby live in a gorgeous house which is big enough for the “Cheaper by the Dozen” family, have a quarter mile lawn, which is absolutely perfect, and unused, and have buckets of money and so much free time that they do not know what to do with themselves. In the meantime some people who don’t make it in the city end up out in this Valley along with all the city’s trash and pollution and watch the rich folks as they travel back and forth, happily bored, and looking for entertainment. T.J. Eckleburg’s eyes I think symbolize the watch of this part of society as it crumbles away (I cannot make up my mind on whether I think it’s society/the rich watching, influencing, and letting it happen or if it’s supposed to symbolize God). I found another connection between the demolishing Valley and the Eggs which is that if Tom is having an affair with Myrtle who lives in this ugly broken down passing zone Fitzgerald might be making a point that although the Eggs and the Valley differ in aspect they do not differ so much in feeling (as far as how people feel about their life situations).
ReplyDeleteI really do not like the way Tom acts around Daisy. I understand why he is dismissive of her shallow comments at times, but it bothers me that he exercises and expresses so much authority and power even through short statements. He seems insecure and needing to control and assert his power and social status. Nick’s comment, “…and there were men at New Haven who hated his guts” (7) stood out to me, because I thought immediately that this is why Tom feels the need to show everyone what a, “…nice place…” (7) he’s got (and beautiful wife, baby, etc.) and what a successful man he has become. As much as I dislike how forceful he is with everyone (physically with Nick), I could not help but feel happy when he broke Myrtle’s nose for repeating Daisy’s name. For a moment I was happy that he was protective of his wife and was not going to let his other woman say what she pleased about her. However, then I remembered that more than protectiveness Tom probably views Daisy as more of a possession a conquer, and Myrtle is his new “girl” after all. Tom is searching for more out of life. Now that he has all the “right” things, he is bored and wants more, because he does not understand that no matter how much more he is capable of attaining he will never be happy if he runs after superficial and materialistic things.
In his search for some excitement in life I think Tom in a way takes advantage of Myrtle, because being of a lower class than Tom she is willing to do whatever to keep his attention. She seems more sexually inclined and is a little crazier than Daisy who has to maintain the “proper” appearance at all times. Unlike Daisy I think that Myrtle is actually superficial and makes it easy for Tom to have a good, easy going time, because she does wild things like buy a puppy dog without a second thought. Her superficiality and I think attempt to step up to Tom’s level was clearly highlighted when she said, “I want to get one of those dogs…I want to get one for the apartment. They’re nice to have…” (27). I would dare say that I think Tom almost has fun spending a little money on Myrtle, because it’s in a wild fashion, were as I could only picture Daisy wanting to spend money on clothes and the baby.
1. I think Fitzgerlad has to remind us that places aren't perfect. Even New York has dirty sides. Nick notices this dirty side and sees the eyes of Doctor T.J. Eckleburg watching over everything. Even in the dirt of New York there are differences in social class. The rich and clean stand over the poor and dirty. I wonder if Tom notices the ash and dirt on his visits to see Myrtle? If Tom ever wonders what it would be like to live in such conditions.
ReplyDelete2. Tom is very selfish and very proud. I dislike Tom very much and see that he is nothing but a hulking brute in this chapter, but I must comment on an interesting line on Tom from the first chapter,"We were in the same senior society, and while we were never intimate I always had the impression that he approved of me and wanted me to like him with some harsh, defiant wistfulness of his own." Why does Tom want Nick to like him? I see some envy in Tom that I wouldn't expect from his actions. Maybe Tom realizes that he is a brute and wants to be excepted by Nick.
3. Tom always wants new things. He never can stay in one place for too long. He uses Myrtle as an excuse to get away from Daisy have something new for a change. Tom has connections with both women. Tom and Daisy are both very high class and arrogant, while Tom and Myrtle both dislike the ones they married and need a more adventurous life style. Tom is torn between these two women.
1. I think the eyes represent the overseer of the characters and the valley. Maybe the eyes represent God's eyes. The Valley Of Ashes just seems depressing and gloomy. It's gray and dark, and there's only three stores. When I think of ashes, I just think of death. The Valley of Ashes has no life. There's no happiness there. And at Wilson's garage, there is no happiness. Wilson is an old car mechanic, and his wife is basically cheating on him right in front of him. Myrtle walks "through her husband as if he were a ghost".
ReplyDelete2. I hate Tom. I can't stand him. He's superficial and just doesn't give care about anything or anyone. He's selfish. But Tom also confuses me. I don't understand why he punched Myrtle when she kept saying Daisy's name. Maybe in a way he does care about Daisy, and he has a conscience and knows what he is doing is wrong. But when Myrtle kept saying "Daisy, Daisy, Daisy", it reminded me of when Daisy said "hulking" with their nagging voices as they tease Tom.
3. Myrtle is very superficial. Her whole party at Tom and Myrtle's apartment was so superficial. Everyone drinking and chatting in a tiny apartment with oversized furniture. She tries to be Daisy. She wants to be Daisy. She wants to be that graceful and beautiful young woman that just "floats" around the room. She just seems so fake, especially when she says, “It’s just a crazy old thing (her dress),” she said. “I just slip it on sometimes when I don’t care what I look like." That's obviously not true, but that quote just shows her superficialness and her immaturity. I honestly don't know why Tom would leave Daisy for Myrtle. I have no idea.
I think, like many others, that the city of ashes represents the difference between the life where the Buchanans live and the poor cities. I think it is included, and that Tom visits, because it is a place where he thinks he is above everybody and that he can show it. It is ironic, because Tom takes Nick to the city of ashes to show this sense of self grandeur, but Nick is from a place that more closely resembles the city of ashes than east egg. As for the eyes in the glasses, I think it is another parallel to Tom's sense of superiority, since he feels he is above the whole town, like the eyes watching it.
ReplyDeleteLike everyone else, I completely dislike Tom, and so far have no sympathy for him. He thinks he is better than everybody else, and shows it in a cruel way. He bosses Nick around, and Mr. Wilson, which is especially upsetting considering he is sleeping with his wife. He always feels the need to assert himself above people, like in the example Jenny gave when Tom makes the joke about Mr. Wilson. And it is completely disturbing that he breaks Myrtle's nose just because he didn't agree with what she was saying. I can see that Tom may be lost, but he handles these feelings in an inexcusable way.
I agree with Jenny that I think one of the things that Tom gets the most satisfaction from is really just the idea of having an affair. Even though Myrtle seems to have more backbone than Daisy, I still think that Daisy is smarter. I think Tom is attracted to the fact the that Myrtle just goes along with the adventure of an affair, and seems not to care that there is nothing in their relationship other than the physical aspect. I think Tom likes that Myrtle is willing to meet him whenever, and that she doesn't require much attention.
1. This picture of the landscape where Myrtle lives shows the exact opposite of where the Buchanan's live. There estate has sun dials, the house over looks the bay, and there are many gardens. The Wilson's live in an area of New York that is coated in ash. The landscape is black and smoky. In the city of New York there is a light smoke, like a fog, that makes the 20's seem mysterious and inviting. This neighborhood is covered in ash and is a very overdone version of New York. It is trying so hard, but can not compare. This symbolizes the Wilson's. Mr. Wilson is always covered in oil and and grease because he is a mechanic. Myrtle Wilson is an overdone version of the ladies in the nicer parts of New York, but it is fake.
ReplyDelete2. Tom is very blatant and thinks highly of himself. He tells Nick outright that he has a mistress and they should go see her: "I want you to come meet my girl." He does not see that having an affair could be seen as wrong. He says that they should go see "his girl" as though this is normal. His affair is no secret at all. Tom feels so entitled. He is almost in the same position as Daisy. They married young when their lives were easier and later realized that the relationship wasn't working. Neither will get a divorce with each other because they won't own up to each other that their relationship isn't working. Tom tells Myrtle that he won't divorce Daisy because Daisy is Catholic and she does not believe in divorce which is not true. Why is Tom still holding on? Does he not want to give up the good years of his old life? Daisy is the only connection he has to his Yale football career and when things were better. Neither of them will let go.
3. Myrtle is the opposite of Daisy. Daisy has facade of innocence and simplicity. She is a proper lady. Myrtle is loud and she says what is on her mind. She challenges Tom is a way that Daisy can't. Myrtle has had a completely different life than Tom. She brings something new to the table. Daisy is old news. Myrtle is exciting and keeps Tom on his toes. She may not be as perfect as Daisy seems, but she is more human. They both have boisterous personalities and they mesh well together. Daisy just stands by while Myrtle acts. I can definitely see Myrtle and Tom together.
1.
ReplyDeleteThe valley is the desolate space between two places, an area to rush through on your way to a destination, an area one does not spend time in, let alone live in. This is the exact opposite of what Tom Buchanan's life has been like. I feel that he is still looking for that thrill in life, as Fitzgerald first described him, and he obtains this thrill be venturing into places such as these. He feels superior when among people such as Mr. Wilson, a giant among ants. As for Dr. Eckleberg's eyes; they seem to be passing an accusatory look not only across this sad landscape covered in ash, but across Tom himself, perhaps conveying displeasure in the fact that Tom has come here to prey on these people.
2.
I believe we can find grounds of sympathy for this poor man. For he is not a product of himself, but a product of the society that he has been raised in, a society that places certain goals in front of him. This society is of course that of the "upper crust," the bourgeoise. I find that Tom has been shaped and set upon a path that ends in a lifestyle that he is supposed to find satisfying, but does not. At a loss for what to do with this particular quandary, he sets out to places that he would normally never visit, places such as the valley, where he finds a thrill in picking up a mistress, someone that is the departure from his norm. Fitzgerald describes this tendency, saying, "I felt that Tom would drift on forever seeking, a little wistfully, for the dramatic turbulence of some irrecoverable football game.
3.
As I stated above, Myrtle is Tom's thrill, his escape. The appeal to Tom, as Nick says, is her, "immediately perceptible vitality about her as if the nerves of her body were continually smoldering." This is the aspect of her that draws Tom to her, not her beauty, which is apparently lacking, but her sense of liveliness, a value that Tom's life has been vacant of for quite some time. He has lived in a structured life rather than one of spontaneity, one where he went to college as per his parents' desires, and married a suitable woman. This is the polar opposite of Myrtle, who embodies her lifestyle in the story of how she met Wilson, saying, "you can't live forever; you can't live forever." This is what magnetically attracts Tom to Myrtle, for she has obtained what he has been lacking.
1. This "City of Ashes" is fascinating because this is where Tom's lover lives. The fact that Tom has virtually everything, and the part in his life that is missing is located in the most desolate place in the city. I think that Fitzgerald is emphasizing that money isn't everything, even to Tom Buchannon.
ReplyDelete2. I can see both arguments for and against Tom. Jimmy brings up a valid point, Tom is dissatisfied with the "upper crust" lifestyle. Fitzgerald has been tying wealth with violence throughout these two chapters, and Tom is the epitome of this relationship. Tom is angry. Tom is lost. Tom is sad. And he's an ass about it. The main thing that completely turns me away from Tom is his lack of respect (as Jenny explained so well). Not only is he disrespectful to women, he's disrespectful to his aquaintances. A moment that struck me was when the McKees were discussing their passion,photography, and, "Tom yawned audibly and got to his feet. 'You McKees need something to drink'."
3. I think that the reasons for Tom's affair with Myrtle to be fairly obvious. As Jimmy was saying, Tom is trapped (just like Daisy) in his pretentious little world. Being with Myrtle is Tom rebelling against not only his family but society as a whole. Hence taking Myrtle out to public restaurants. Myrtle is also very different from Daisy when it comes to personality. "Vitality" is a word that could never describe what we now know of Daisy. This is why Tom keeps coming back to the "City of Ashes." It's his escape. It's his rebellion.
1. The Valley of Ashes acts as a no-man's land in the novel. In chapter 2 we see the insanity of New York City, it is s crazy as East egg but in a very different way. The vast grey-ness of The Valley of Ashes provides contrast to the vibrant colors of both East Egg and New York City. The one exception is the vividly blue eyes of T.J. Eckleburg. The enormous, daunting, bespectacled eyes give a sense of being watched. Even though they are in a no-man's land, a place where the insanity of the city and East Egg cannot reach them, they are still being scrutinized and followed. The eyes are a constant reminder that though Tom believes he cannot be stopped, he's not completely left to his own devices.
ReplyDelete2. As much as I would love to find some likable aspect of tom, I find it increasingly difficult. At first he just seemed like a run of the mill racist chauvinist but after seeing his interactions with Myrtle, one can see that he is so much more than that. He feeds off of her insecurity in her marriage. He is allowed to speak of her husband, even visit their home, do business with Mr. Wilson yet Myrtle isn't even allowed to say Daisy's name. He hits her when she doesn't do exactly as he says. He is a racist, sexist, abusive bastard and finding any sympathy is next to impossible.
3. As I said in 2, Tom feeds off of Myrtle's insecurity in her own marriage. That day on the train he was clearly looking for something to do, something to break the "mundane pattern" of his life. In searching for a new adventure he happened to stubble upon Myrtle. She was easy bate, unabashedly staring at Tom and very willing to get in a cab with him without a word. So much of his life appears out of his control, Daisy and the child, he is such a control freak that that must drive him wild. His affair with Myrtle gives him complete control over a willing, relatively attractive young woman. She is his latest adventure and she is willing and passive. When she does speak up, he hits her, breaking her nose. She is almost like a doll to him, he can do what he want to and with her and not feel connected in any way.
1. The pile of ashes represents a physical metaphorical gap between country life New York life, I think. We talked today in class about how the houses in East Egg were so large and ostentatious, and that part doesn't change in New York. But whereas in East Egg everybody seemed to be trying to at least act the part of a responsible member of society, in New York everything is done with reckless abandon. I Think the pile of ashes is Fitzgerald's
ReplyDeleteReminder us that there is a real world with real ditch-digging people in it somewhere along the line.
2. Tom thus far in the book has been a complete ass to everyone he knows except for his mistress, Nick, and to some extent Jordan. I think that Fitzgerald would not have created a character like Tom just so he could be flatly bad, I agree with what some of the other people have said today- there has to be another layer in there somewhere. Flatness notwithstanding, Tom hasn't been my favorite guy in this book so far.
3. I think that Myrtle offers Tom a chance to be dangerous again, to be the star quarterback. I will attempt not to stray into Mad Men references here, but sometimes people have affairs not because they stop loving the person they married, but because they get bored (although I guess this is just another way of saying the spouse is inadequate). I'm not so sure this applies in Tom's case anyway. It seems like Tom has become disenchanted with life in East Egg, and part of his personality is always looking for the next adventure.
1. I love this scene in the book. I think this idea that he is going from something to grandiose, and garish to a place of ash, or literally nothing is not what one would expect from Tom. His relationship with money seems to be the most stable relationship he has in general, so to see Tom transition from the place of wealth to this place that has so little and is so poor shows the reader his different sides. I think the eyes represent someone watching him. Now I think it could be a lot of people, but I think it is, not God per-say, but the one who judges. i see the eyes as like the all knowing. I think Tom thinks of himself as the end all and be all of a lot of things, and I think Nick has the mask of no judgement, when in reality they are neither of those things. I think they represent what both of them are trying to be.
ReplyDelete2.Tom is a MORON, is all seriousness in no way can I take him seriously. he has no respect for anyone else. He is constantly talking out of his ass, like when he talks about the white people being overtaken. He thinks of himself as like the top man, when in reality he has no idea what is going on. He doesn't have the decency to be honest with his wife, showing he is a coward. He has no respect for anyone else including his guests. he is constantly using those around him to get what he wants. He does not believe that anyone can ever live up to him, like he is the top of the line. His entire life is based on people telling him how fabulous he is, and how he is this and that, and no one has the "balls" to tell him the truth. Even his wife, who is allowing him to cheat on a her with another women, in front of her face, does not have the strength to leave him. I dislike Tom a lot because he represents the cocky guy that has the power, but not the smarts to use the power.
3.Tom wants everything. He never has enough. Even witha beautiful wife like Daisy he is not satisfied because he never will be. He continually covets something and wants something different from what he has because to him staying with someone or sticking with something represents quitting, or just taking what you get. He is not okay with that, he thinks he deserves more, and deserves better than everyone else simply because his ego has grown due to the fact that people do not have a backbone. Ignorance is Bliss in the world of the rich, and with the ignorance of the other people Tom would be nothing. I truly think that he is having this affair with Myrtle because he can, not because he is not getting what he needs or wants at home, he just wants to exert the power he has.
1. I think out of everyone's opinion i agree mostly with Sam's because this is definitely the description of where Myrtle lives. Also like Amanda, it was really hard for me to even come up with a theory but I'm giving it a shot as to what I'm leanings towards. For some reason I'm getting a slight feeling of what John was saying up there about Fitzgerald wanting the reader to see Tom as human. Obviously, this is one of Tom's common routes and he obviously doesn't mind Myrtle. Maybe Fitzgerald is trying to show us a soft spot Tom has. I think of it as finding the perfect fish in the sea/valley of a big mess of unknown grey things. I can't really tell what the eyes signify, but maybe the eyes are a sign for Nick to think about who's watching who he should watch and to be very very alert. Which ironically, he gets drunk for the rest of the day and isn't paying as much attention as he could.
ReplyDelete2. I'm most likely going to contradict what I said in number one just because Tom really is rude and inconsiderate and selfish most of the time except maybe when it comes to Myrtle. Not to say Myrtle is his princess whom he honors and respects and "loves" very much, but he definitely has a spot for her higher than his family and reputation. He knowingly stooped down to her level which is not filthy rich and ideally nice. I guess what stayed with me about his rudeness was when Myrtle asked the old man selling the dogs and he said the dog was a boy. For some reason I feel like Tome just wanted to hear himself have power in front of Myrtle and Nick so he barely even waited or acknowledged what the old man said and said, "'It's a bitch,' said Tome decisively. "Here's your money. Go and buy ten more dogs with it." I guess I clearly saw how cruel he sort of is. He truly believes that he can do anything he feels like as long as he pays money. It is a very bad idea to give. He does the same with Daisy as well. And the fact that he would use the word bitch over girl just drives me crazy simply because if anyone should use that world in that way it should really only be the vet. I guess what I'm trying to say is that for a filthy rich man, he's not the most charming but rather has the most cavalier attitude. He doesn't show even the slightly proper concern or seem to be embarrassed of the undermining and condescending he does to the people around him.
3. The one thing I can think of right now is that perhaps Myrtle being about thirty years old as narrated by Nick may actually be sophisticated while Daisy is not. John siad Daisy was really young and maybe that's why she can't believe she may ever be on Tom's level and will never be strong enough to assert her dignity. On the other hand, it may have been the booze or maybe just Myrtle's intellect saying she should push Tom and fight back by yelling Daisy's name. I think that was maybe not the best way to assert woman power but definitely served Tom right to hear it. I guess Tom was angry because he doesn't like to feel guilty so prefers not to think of Daisy while he's with Myrtle. I feel, in a way, that when Myrtle said Daisy's name like that Tom actually feels more of a cheater on her than he does with Daisy. He specifically said to Nick, "I want you to see my girl." He didn't even want to take a part in showing off his daughter, so he definitely feels something more profound for Myrtle. Or actually it could be that Tom is with Myrtle for the fun free ride of it like in most affairs. Or maybe Myrtle is just more fun and social than Daisy with her one friend.
1. I think that the City of Ashes is the thing that brings Nick back to reality. IT is the focus point of his life. He to came to New York to experience happiness and excitement so the City of Ashes is what brings him back to reality and away from the dream that is New York.
ReplyDelete2. Tom is a total douche and he doesn't deserve anything. His life is the very epitome of every other man's, but he still wants more. His house is HUGE and wonderfully furnished but he still wants a bigger house, he blatantly cheats on his wife with another, rich, women, he is an ass to everyone around him, and he's even abusive to the person he is cheating on his wife with. Even the way he talks makes him sound more stupid. I feel like every time I hear Tom speak I lose brain cells. He makes everyone in the room dumber when he speaks. Tom is a really, really, really, bad person and I hope he comes down with an incurable, lethal disease, and leaves all of his money to Daisy.
3. The only thing good about Myrtle thus far that I can think of, is that she's rich and maybe, to a point, nice and or kindhearted. But then again, she might just be a rich, dumb, lady who gets what ever she wants to in life because she can. I think Tom is cheating on Daisy with Myrtle the turtle because Myrtle is the complete opposite of Daisy. While Daisy is pretty and quiet, Myrtle is... less pretty and outspoken. Myrtle is obviously more sexually active than Daisy, while Daisy is nicer and less obnoxious than Myrtle. But I think what really drives then point home for Tom, is that she's rich and ACTUALLY sophisticated. Myrtle is obviously more of a fighter than Daisy, because while Daisy remains quiet and timid Myrtle fights back and doesn't let Tom push her around, but she pays for it later when Tom breaks her nose. I honestly can't fathom why she would stay with Tom.
1. The valley of ashes is a very interesting aspect of The Great Gatsby. Although the valley of ashes is separated from both West Egg and East Egg, it says a lot about both those places and the people who live there. To me, the only real difference between the valley and the two Eggs is the abundance and lack of wealth. Although the people of West and East Egg might think they are so great, if you took away all of their material possessions, they would be nothing more than the people who inhabit the valley. From the glimpse of people that we’ve seen so far, such as Tom and Daisy, the only thing that sets them apart from the ‘low-lives” is their money. The valley of ashes really does show the reader just how superficial the lives of Tom and Daisy are.
ReplyDelete2. You can’t really deny that Tom is a d-bag. If a d-bag is someone who is violent, strives to have total control, and doesn’t care about others, then by definition Tom is a d-bag. That being said, I think he is still a relatable, or more or less pitiable character. It’ unfortunate that he has such an incapacity to think about others and that he is unable find happiness in something other than himself or the material world, and for this I pity Tom.
3. Maybe his relationship is another source of control, a way of having power over Daisy. Maybe it’s his way of at least attempting to escape the world he already inhabits. I think the relationship has less to do with Myrtle than one might think though. Just like Tom’s friendship with Nick, it seems like Tom’s relationship with Myrtle is almost completely self-serving.
1. I feel like the valley of ashes is a very desolate place, "a fantastic farm where ashes grow like wheat into ridges and hills and grotesque gardens;" almost like a place of decay. But, it also, like someone said, seems like a no-mans-land between West Egg and New York, like the middle ground in trench warfare, where all the trash and dead bodies lie.
ReplyDelete2. I feel like everyone can agree that Tom is a total d-bag. He openly has a mistress, and even gets up from dinner with his wife and friends to take a call with her. He is racist, as shown with his interest in the book "The Rise of the Colored Empires". I also feel some sympathy for him, because this may be the only way he knows how to act. He may have been raised to think or act like the way he is. It is also sad that he acts like that, living in the material world and also treating his wife like that.
3. It is quite strange that Tom would cheat on a pretty girl like Daisy with a woman like Myrtle. But, as the book shows, the way Myrtle carries herself might be the thing that attracts Tom. “She carried her surplus flesh sensuously as women can.” When I picture Daisy, I see her as a dainty young woman, rushing after her husband who she knows is going to be talking with a mistress, who feels like her life is terrible. Myrtle seems older, and more mature. But, having any mistress at all and flaunting her allows Tom to be the center of attention again, just like he was as football player.
I think that the valley of the ashes helps to remind the commuters from The Eggs and New York how close they themselves are to this dead sort of Hell. It shows how closely related the Eggs are to this dismal lifestyle because The Eggs are just like The Valley, just sugar coated and shiny. It represents how the only difference between the two is the illusion of happiness that those in The Eggs tend to have and/or try to give off.
ReplyDeleteI don't like him. I do feel that I can sympathize with him though. I would characterize him as pathetic and lost. I feel really bad for him because he has come to realize that he has nothing to look forward to in life. He had his moments of fame and he can't find anything else as big and fulfilling to do with his life.
I think it is because he needs to change someone. He seems to have a very vapid and superficial relationship with his wife. They don't seem to fight much and they don't seem to love each other very strongly at all. I think that he is gaining multiple things from this affair: the ability to evoke a reaction from Daisy and to be talked about. Myrtle has a strong personality and I think this originally drew him to her. He also may be hoping to rekindle his relationship with Daisy. This may cause her to become more passionate and enamored because of jealousy or it may just bring out an intense anger within her. Either way, I feel that he would be happier if the people in his life were more emotional and real. The other gain, being talked about, arises because many people know about his affair and this helps make him feel important because people talk about him and stare at him. It makes him feel like he is an important part of something once again.