Before I give you the questions: one, this is the law school in the book. The first two buildings pictured in all their severe majesty (notice the barren trees and dark skies: that's winter in New England) are really one building, Langdell Hall. In it, of course, is Kingsfield's classroom that Hart cannot get out of his mind, even as he is about to die in the pond. This is a funny, telling, horrifying moment in the book.
Second: you've already seen the opening of the 1973 film directed and written by James Bridges. A few years later, the book was, as I've already told you, made into a television show that actually ran for four years. John Houseman was back as Kingsfield, and fresh-faced James Stephens is Hart, minus the moustache of the movie Hart and now with a first name, James. Look 3:37 into the following clip (or watch the whole thing to see what was being shown on television in 1978), and you will see the opening credits for "The Paper Chase," but now in the guise of an uplifting story of friendship, loyalty, and the joys of learning. As Kingsfield told us week after week, "'You come in here with a skull full of mush—and if you survive, you leave here thinking like a lawyer.'" It actually made me think about going to law school.
Osborn's novel doesn't necessarily make us want to go to law school. So...
1. What is the picture of law school we are getting in the novel? What word or phrase best characterizes it for you? And what is the moment or example in the novel (anywhere in the novel) that best supports your characterization? Go ahead and quote in the novel. And don't everybody repeat what's been said already, okay?
2. This is for 2nd Period only. A couple of you have talked about in class the italicized inter chapter vignettes that Osborn occasionally inserts. There was the one that we discussed of the student who killed himself. In the most recent reading is one on 60, about a visit by Robert McNamara, John Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson's Secretary of Defense during the height of the Vietnam War, to Harvard. As Andrew pointed out, these pictures don't have an overt connection to the narrative we're reading—this one takes place in college, not Law School, and as far as we know, the narrator is not even in our story. Yet there obviously is a reason Osborn puts them in the book. So what might be the reason for this vignette on page 60? What might it have to do with what we're reading? I would like all of you in 2nd period to respond to what one or more of your classmates have written. That means, if you're the first to post, come on back and post again.
2. This is for 5th Period Only. Chapter 18 is a turning point in the book, it seems to me. This is where Susan tells Hart she can't see him anymore. "'Something's happened to your mind'" (80). What has come to a head in this chapter that causes Susan to desert him? What, in fact, is (are) the crucial difference(s) between Susan and Hart that Osborn is highlighting here—and to what purpose? I would like all of you in 5th period to respond to what one or more of your classmates have written. That means, if you're the first to post, come on back and post again.
3. For everyone. What moment in the reading particularly jumped out at you—and why?
Remember: there's a quiz tomorrow. See you all then.
1. Law school seems to me like a place where many kids, presumably pay off all of their savings, their parent's savings and there futures, to go to a prestigious school, that ultimately leads to three outcomes. It either boosts you into the world of law, with a pretty degree to hang on your office wall. It fails you out, or forces you to commit suicide. A place that sucks all of your time in and gives none in return. When Hart finds Ford sleeping in his bed still studying, i was really struck by the fact that studying is really all they have time for. "Ford was there, lying on his back, still dressed, like a Mexican taking a siesta except that Ford's sombrero was a law book spread out over his face." (chpt8) I don't have page numbers.
ReplyDelete2.Only a theory, but McNamara could represent Kingsfield in the way Kingsfield does not care about his students, and it is very obvious he does not. His class is filled with personal battles, fought between one student at a time, almost as a means of pride for Kingsfield, just as McNamara may represent that to the narrator of these vignettes. It may be Osborn himself, in real life and what happened to him during his time in college.
3.The scene, and chapter at that, was chapter 17, when kevin had the gun aimed at the car. When the novel said, "He squinted and pulled the trigger." I was shocked, thinking he had a gun and had gone postal. Then i realized it was empty, but I got a visceral sense Kevin was going to use that gun for suicide. I do not know why, but then later on when they were all in the circle and realized Kevin had not shown, then O,Connor said, "what difference does Kevin make?" it started to pull together, that Kevin is innocence crumbling, almost like George Wilson.
I agree with you that McNamara could represent Kingsfield. I wonder if this sort of uprising from the students is foreshadowing to what may happen to Kingsfield. Maybe, after so many personal battles in the classroom and students he has made to feel inferior, there will be some sort of uprising or protest against Kingsfield. I feel that it would most definitely not be as blunt as the one against McNamara, but something along the lines might happen.
DeleteI definitely agree about Kevin. The entire short little chapter gave us a glimpse into the true emotions of a law student, without even mentioning how he felt except to say "he felt almost tired enough to go to bed." (63). The way that Osborn paints this picture is really amazing: "it was six in the morning.... his room was filled with his notes and law books, laid randomly on the sofa, coffee table and chairs. He's spent the night trying to catch up." (63). In my mind, he's on the cusp of going postal as you said. I mean, this guy has been up all night cramming law into his skull and I think that Kevin could be the person under the most pressure that we've met so far in the book. he can't deal with all of what comes with law school, because he's also the only student we've met so far that is married... and his wife's father is paying for his education. That's a hell of a lot of pressure he's under. I think that it would be incredibly hard to deal with all of the pressure and that frankly, I don't see Kevin making it through the rest of the book.
DeleteOne could easily just say that the picture of law school we get is that it is simply hard. While this is of course true, it is so much more complex than that. The picture we get is that law school is more than hard, it is near impossible to do right. Law school from what we've seen has appeared to be a maze for every law student, a maze with countless numbers of dead ends. People can work their behinds off and still fail miserably, people can be as attentive as possible in class and still be made a complete fool by the teacher. A word that best characterizes it for me is hopeless. While being a student at Harvard Law will present its students with great opportunities in the future, the way things are at school makes it seem hopeless to pursue any of these opportunities in the first place. No matter how hard these students try, and they try incredibly hard, they're in no way promised success. It is hard, but it is hard on a whole different level. I think the moment that best describes this hopelessness and the impossibility to do right in law school is the scene where Kevin is called into Mr. Shaw's office, and he tells him that he failed everything on his practice exams. "No use beating around the bush. You flunked every one of your practice exams." Kevin, despite his annoying attitude towards everything, has been trying to the extent where he shouldn't be flunking every one of his practice exams. No, one could argue that he has not been trying as hard as some of the other characters in the novel, but he has been trying.
ReplyDeleteI think the reason for this random vignette on page 60 is to show the readers the mindset of Harvard students in general. We have talked about in class how they are teaching you at Harvard how to be a jerk, to prepare you for the real world. But I think they are just teaching their students to be more independent and to have their own opinions. And with these opinions, they are teaching their students to show these opinions, make them known. They are preparing them for becoming part of the real world. Obviously, the students at Harvard are brilliant, or else they would not be there. What they may lack is that independence, and that's why it is so crucial for it to be taught to them. This vignette shows independence, as the students thrust themselves into the real world by making their opinions known to someone as important as The Secretary of Defense.
The moment of the reading that particularly jumped out at me was the part where while talking about themselves, Hart and Susan walk out onto the ice. The ice then breaks and Hart falls in. Why this stuck out at me was because it really shows the adolescent side that both of them still have. To start, they show terrible judgement and walk far out on thin ice. They don't think about the consequences, and they pay for them. But I think this scene really shows their adolescence in that Hart almost loses his life, and all they are focused on is their relationship and what will come of it. When he gets off the ice, it's barely even mentioned. Susan goes straight into how he has changed. It seems childish to me for them not to put everything into perspective, for them to put their little fling before the importance of a future for Hart, of Hart's life for that matter.
I agree that one of the aims of the school (evident in the book) is to produce independent, strong, self sufficient people. I wonder if they're really doing very well on that front. Those kids are fine in a group of 2,000, but on their own? It's interesting that McNamara graduated from Harvard Business School, yet he still finds himself unable be confident and find the right answer when called on.
DeleteSohail, I had forgotten that McNamara graduated from HBS. The Kennedy administration's "best and brightest" were to a great degree products of Harvard, of the Ivies in general, as is the case still today (Barrack Obama, Harvard Law School, Mitt Romney, Harvard Business School). And always one of the great questions of the Kennedy era was how did all these brilliant men educated in the "best" schools in the country manage to screw things up as badly as they did? Perhaps some answer could be found in our book...
DeleteI get a picture of a fine line between failure and success. The school makes people go crazy trying to get ahead. Poor Kevin is lost. He failed his practice exams and feels as if everything is out of control:"His chair rocked violently, almost spinning him to the ground," (87). He is barely holding on and at this moments he almost loses it. There is so much pressure on everyone. In the beginning of the book they are all ready to work hard and do well, but at this point in the book they are all getting to their breaking points. Nobody feels prepared and at any moment Kingsfield can catch them off guard or bring them down with a word. No one is safe or secure at any point. Any of them could easily topple over.
ReplyDelete2. Susan and Hart want different things. Susan doesn't want to be married to a law student and live that life:"I don't want to live in the married student dorms, have neat friends and walk babies with them. They put people away in that place," (76-77). She doesn't want to be an Ashely, Susan likes her independence. Hart wants to get married. It is what he is supposed to do in life, become a lawyer and have a loving wife to come home to. He is going crazy just like the rest of the boys. He doesn't know what to do. Susan is the only thing he can hang on to. Susan does not like the idea of being trapped. She wants fun and is not ready for marriage. She wants to live alone. Hart wants to make sure one part of his life is stable. Susan doesn't need that. She is happy enough alone.
3. Each study group gets more and more tense. In the beginning they were anxious, but now it is every man for himself. If Kevin misses the meeting, he can fail. When O'Connor suggests less meetings, he is pounced on by Bell. O'Connor fights and fights, but in the end knows that this study group means the difference between failing and passing. They all cling to the study group as if it is the last life preserver in the open ocean. They can either sink or swim. Kevin's hold on the life preserver is slipping and no one cares drowns or not. Whenever anyone brings up an people threaten to kick the person out of the group. Ford tells Kevin that Kevin needs the group but they don't need him and Bell tells O'Connor that he would be sorry if he deserted the group. Each person is so afraid that they won't let anyone do anything that could threaten his potential,
Elizabeth, I really like your response on #2. Just to remind everyone: if we think Hart and his fellow law students are young, which they are (and often behavior as such), Susan is 20. Interesting comparison: Daisy was 23, and yet Susan acts and thinks so much more maturely than Daisy. It's not that Susan is wise beyond her years: she has no idea what she wants to do yet, and she's certainly not waiting to have her fate determined by a man. And as you say, Elizabeth, she will not be trapped. Which says what, of course, about Hart?
DeleteI like the way you see their relationship. I think that maybe their differences may bring them together. Also I agree with what you said about Hart. I think that he is trying to plan out his life and that includes Susan. Susan in the other hand does not want anyone to plan her life, not even herself. I like how you mention that Hart needs to hang on to Susan. Maybe she is the only one that might save him from this law world.
Delete1. Law school is harsh and unpredictable. Everything is unexpected, from the seemingly solid ice breaking and Kevin's failure of his practice tests. It is a dangerous war; in one moment Hart could be chatting with Susan and the next he could be frozen numb, on the verge of death. The best is expected but all you get is the worst: "he though he might have done well". Kevin is completely innocent in his thoughts, even confidant, but yet he is not able to succeed. The pressure that the hard work put into your life could disappear in an instant is too much stress for a person, and it is utterly nerve-racking to think about the future when the present is already so hard.
ReplyDelete2. Hart is thinking of the future but Susan is thinking about the present. Hart is concerned about marrying some girl he met just a few months ago, and his mind is just thinking of what will happen rather than what is happening. In the beginning of the book, Hart thinks about Susan; what is playing about right in front of him when he first goes to her room. He is in a race against his peers, but that has led him too far ahead, as shown by his strenuous preparations for a single answer to a single question, playing out every possible scenario just to possibly curry favor with his professor. Now he lives and breathes Harvard Law, and cannot give his time to anything else.
3. I thought that when Kevin aimed his repeater at a car he was shooting a pellet gun ("the gun went ping") like a little kid (I quickly realized it wasn't a pellet gun when the hammer fell on the empty chamber). Kevin is clearly slipping into a deep, dark pit, and I think he's going to commit suicide by the end of the book. He has so much pressure with his wife's father paying the bills for him so that Ashley can live comfortably as a rich lawyer's wife, but Kevin cannot make the grades, even when he studies the night away. Kevin thinks that pulling the trigger without anything in the gun is bad, but it would be worse if something were in it.
I like what you said in your response to #2: "Now he lives and breathes Harvard Law, and cannot give his time to anything else". I think Hart listened to what Ford said on page 62, and he wants to have Susan as almost a life raft through Law School. Susan is to smart not to notice that Hart is making their relationship about Law School, not about them.
DeleteI also really like what you said about number 2. I think you bring up several valid points that I also thought about as I was blogging. Hart and Susan are definitely at different points in their relationship, because Hart is thinking about his future while Susan in trying to enjoy the present.
Delete1. The image of law school that i am getting from this reading is a place where nothing you do will ever be good enough. Everyone is working harder than they ever have in their entire lives and yet them seem to be getting notihng back in return for thier hard work. All of the students kiss up to Kingsfield at his party and try to get on his good side but it was all for nothing because Kingsfield still treats them they way he's always treated them. And like what Elizabeth and Sam have already quoted when Kevin thought he rocked his pretests and he flunked every single one even though we see how hard he works and how much effort he puts in and it all comes crashing down. Plus the additional personal pressure all of these students put on themselves, there just seems to be no easy way to make it out of the process without losing a part of yourself. I think what Susan said in response to Kingsfield and Harts naive idea that Kingsfield cares about how he does was very insightful because she's only seen the students come and go. "You're going to get screwed. You're a nice guy but you're going to get screwed. There isn't any middle ground. If you start thinking like that you'll never be able to survive. Hell, it's all got to roll off your back. Do you think my father even knows who you are? Do you think he'd care, even if he did know? What do you think law school is all about? You have to ignore it, or you have to be able to take it. You have to float with it, or you have to wade through not thinking its there (54)".
ReplyDelete2. I think Susan has seen how much Hart has changed "you were fresh before, you weren't like the other people in Cambridge (68)". She sees how much everything has consumed him and she doesn't like what he's turned into as a result of it. A major difference between them is their stances on getting married. Susan doesn't want to become one of those dependent fiancees who are just waiting around like Asheley. She wants to be her own person and perhaps she doesn't want to become a part of the same insitution as her father. I think she likes keeping seperate from the law school and not intruding on her father and the place that is holy and sacred to him.
3. I was shocked by Hart in the whole scene of them being on the frozen lake. Just the idea that he would do something as reckless as that was striking. Also when he was just sitting there and the ice was breaking, the water was sloshing up, everything was moving, and he just sits there, thinking about school and contracts and cases. He just seems to have (literally) gone off the deep end. Everyone seems to have just lost it. I was also kind of freaked out by Kevin when he was with the gun. I think what was the most twisted thing was that his father-in-law had given him the gun and he was left to his own devices at a time where he is anything but mentally, phiscally, and emotionally stable.
"Off the deep end." That made me laugh out loud, Tanja. Indeed, there's something going on here about balance, literally and figuratively. Where is the solid ground (ice) in this world? Ford says the trick or solution is to "find a good woman and hang on." Which is what Hart is trying to do: but it's not working—and we see why here. What if the woman you want to hang onto doesn't want to be hung onto?
Delete1. Law school is a competition that brings on anxiety and tension and makes it impossible to be fully happy. These students are constantly being pushed to their extreme limits, losing sleep and any free time. The image that I get from Harvard Law School is that it is impossible to be happy. No character seems to be fully happy and excited to be at Law School. I feel like the students are stuck on this hopeless goal to win Kingsfield's affection and please Kingsfield rather than to please themselves. There is no enthusiasm, just competition. I think this idea is best shown in the group meetings. There is this huge competition to outsmart each other rather than actually learn for yourself. This is best shown with O'Connor, who desperately wants to switch out of the study group because it would be more productive for him, but has to stay because of competition. The other members of the group just dismiss O'Connor's pleas for their own benefit. " 'I don't have time for the group.' O'Connor pleaded. Regulate yourself, O'Connor,' Anderson said. 'Lets start,' Ford said."
ReplyDelete2. In class, we discussed how this book is Hart's coming of age story, and I think that Osborne really highlighted Hart's loss of innocence in chapter 18. I think that one of the main reasons that Susan decided to go for Hart is that he was innocent and new. He came into HLS with a more optimistic attitude than others and she enjoyed this. The place where they now differ is that Hart is not the man that Susan was into because of this loss of innocence due to his obsession with doing well in law school. Susan said, "You were fresh before, you weren't like other people in Cambridge." I agree with Tanja in that they also have different standpoint on marriage. Susan is very much her own independent person, which I think she is very proud of because she is used to people judging her for her dad. She takes pride in having separated herself from her fathers image and doesn't want that to occur again with Hart.
3. This is kind of related to question 2. What really struck me in this reading section is how Osborne is really highlighting what the pressure of Law School has done to Hart. I think that Hart is starting to become obsessed with both Kingsfield and his law studies and Susan sees this. It really hit me when Hart was submerged in freezing water, where he could have died, and was thinking about his law cases and how he could finally see them clearly in this situation. Its quite creepy that in a situation of life versus death Hart feels that he can "make subtle differentiations he'd never been able to do in class." He is literally going insane trying to please Kingsfield. This idea was also presented when he made outlines, study sheets, timing and various other strategies in order to simply answer one of Kingsfield's questions in chapter 7.
1. It would seem that Law School is just a test of how much stress you can handle. These people all got into the top law schools in the country; we know that they’re smart. I think it’s probably safe to assume that there are precious few law schools one could get into without being smart. So the real question is: how much can you take? I think it’s interesting that when Kevin hears about his practice exam results, he immediately thinks, “[I] couldn’t have flunked; they didn’t admit law students who would flunk.”(73) Someone who goes to Harvard Law must be somewhat unfamiliar with that feeling of academic failure. This type of school is obviously completely different. You can’t just be a smart, hardworking person anymore. Maybe Kevin just can’t deal with all of the pressure. I wouldn’t be surprised if he turned out to be another suicide for Harvard’s record books. While all of this sounds awful, you have to think of the payoff. If you are one of those people who can pass all of their classes and come out with some sanity left, you’ve just entered one of the most profitable careers that one can hope to enter. It’s also a career that has inordinate sums of money and (potentially) lives riding on it. Shouldn’t it be this hard?
ReplyDelete2. This vignette reminded me a lot of the scenes in Kingsfield’s classroom. In this case, Robert McNamara is any one of Kingsfield’s students, and the students surrounding the car act like Kingsfield. McNamara is being called on to answer a question he doesn’t know the answer to. If he’s telling the truth, then no one knows the answer. Yet, we know that they won’t let him leave until they feel he’s given them a good answer, just like Kingsfield wouldn’t leave Kevin alone. Obviously this is different in that Kevin is an innocent kid and McNamara is the Secretary of Defense, but the two scenes seem similar to me. I’m not sure why Osborn would draw this parallel. Maybe he’s showing us how even someone as accomplished and high ranking as the Secretary of Defense is still basically just a lost kid like Kevin is.
3. I know a couple people have already cited this moment, but I really thought the most interesting part of the reading was when Kevin was pointing the empty gun out of the window. Things are going to end badly for Kevin. Cam said he thinks Kevin might try to commit suicide with the gun. I think there’s a really good possibility of that. I found it interesting when it was stated that “it was bad to pull the trigger when there wasn’t anything in the gun.”(63)SPOILER ALERT DON’T CONTINUE IF YOU HAVEN’T SEEN MAD MEN SEASON 5. This is sort of a morbid prediction, but I wonder if he might try to commit suicide with the gun only to have it malfunction and either not go off at all, or just leave him disabled. This is similar to the something that happens near the end of season 5 of Mad Men when one of the main characters tries to commit suicide by carbon monoxide poisoning in his car, only to find that his car won’t start (it’s a Jaguar).
Funny, now that you mention it in this way it makes complete sense. I said the opposite, that McNamara was Kingsfield, but this makes sense. Each vignette is tied to the scenes in some way, and i think you got this right.
DeleteI really agree with Sohail on number two as well. It took me a while to come to this conclusion to so this helps me think and relate it more clearly. It makes perfect sense that McNamara and Kingsfield's student play somewhat the same role. BUt at the exact same time one of the people in the crowd that "bends foward" to yell at him in his face reminded me of Hart when he leans over the table to tell Ford to shutup.
DeleteI actually had not considered the scene in this way previously. I had thought that it somehow represented the fact that HLS tries to teach the kids to be jerks and teaches them to assign blame, but the fact that that scene was not comprised of HLS students made it hard to finish connecting the dots there. I really appreciate this view of the scene and I think it makes a lot of sense.
Delete1. Clearly thus far the picture of law school that this novel portrays law school in a negative light. There has been nothing but stress in the student cast of characters, and no chapter portrays any part of the school in a positive way. Law school is portrayed as a borderline gladiatorial society. Each student feels as if it is a competition and they are being pit against each other to see who will rise to the top. As we discussed in class, the students who embody the top ten percent of the student body in terms of GPA are the students who end up the most successful. This is shown by the change that has overcome the entirety of the study group that Hart is a part of. in the beginning of the book they worked together and helped the group do better as a whole, but at this point it is clear they have split apart and are solely working for their own benefit. In the reading the group immediately shuts down the idea that they meet more than once a week. If the group was at all intended to help each individual do better why would anyone reject the idea? Harvard Law School is clearly being portrayed as a fiercely competitive environment in which people will do anything to get ahead.
ReplyDelete2. I think the reason Susan broke herself off from Hart is clear. At first Hart had been his own person. Hart hadn't been the type of guy to take her time to talk about his feelings, or to ask her to get married. What Hart is doing is exactly what the man she had been in a relationship with the previous year did. Clearly Susan isn't interested in settling down and living her life out with Hart. In addition to their clash regarding their relationship, and as Christine and Tanja said, Hart is becoming obsessed with law school. Instead of being his own man he has become just like all the other Cambridge men. He never stops thinking about Kingsfield, his grades, or even just law school in general, he doesn't want to end up like Kevin, and this leads to an obsession with law school. Susan realizes that he has changed and simply cuts him off.
3. I think the moment that jumped out to me was the last chapter of the reading. Kevin is just such a sad character. He is a prime example of the student no one wants to be. There is so much pressure on Kevin regarding his performance and yet he is failing so completely and utterly. It is such a sad situation that it is hard to not have his story jump out to me.
Sohail, you raise, or reiterate, a crucial question of the novel. "While all this sounds awful, you have to think of the payoff." As Kingsfield says in the clip from the t.v. series, "If you survive, you'll leave here thinking like a lawyer." And being paid like a lawyer—your point. But Osborn himself, in the intro to my edition (I don't know if it's in yours), writes: "Why does the Professor get to call on me when I haven't raised my hand? I know I'm going to make a lot of money eventually but why is this place [so awful]?" Is this the accepted or acceptable price for a shot at the golden ring—dare we say it, The American Dream? Indeed, your question resonates and we'll have to address it: "Shouldn't it be this hard?"
ReplyDelete1. The picture I’m getting from the novel of law school is where dreams go to die and determination is tested. These lawyer-hopefuls come with high ambitions and enthusiasm, but, like Tanja said, no matter how much work they put in and no matter how much passion they have, what they do will never be good enough. They will never succeed. Kevin studied for his practice exams. He even thought he did well. But he actually failed every single one of his exams. With Hart and Ford’s study group, every one puts so much work into making study guides, Bell’s is four-hundred pages long and he “spent hours on it in the library, drawing each letter like a separate picture.” They are all working incredibly hard, but their work might not amount to anything. Every character in the book seems miserable. Everyone seems somewhat suicidal this far into the school year (Kevin with the gun, Hart with the deathly freezing pond), but they didn’t come to Harvard Law like this.
ReplyDelete2. Susan says in chapter 18 that she always “gets mixed up with law students.” Going off of what Christine said, I think Susan liked Hart because of his optimistic ambitions and his innocence and because of the traits, she did not identify him as a Harvard law student. But as he has gotten deeper into the Harvard Law world, he has become less and less of the person that she first met who helped her on the street and become more and more like a typical law student. I think the key difference between Hart and Susan is that Susan was so badly to separate herself from her father’s world and the legacy he carries whereas Hart was to apart of Kingsfield’s world so desperately. He tries so hard to impress Kingsfield and get his attention and he makes calculated moves to do so and at the same time Susan is trying to shy away from her father’s gaze.
3. A moment that particularly jumped out at me was when Hart starts to read Ford’s journal. Hart says he was “not really figuring to read it, but not avoiding it either” but at the same he’s thinking about the fact that he has an easy way to abandon the crime scene because he’ll be able to hear if anyone is coming because the door was half open. I just saw this as another moment where I questioned the relationship between Ford and Hart and if their friendship is actually a friendship or more of a competitive relationship.
I really liked what you said about Susan wanting to shy away from her father's gaze. I haven't thought about it before, but it makes a lot of sense. Susan has lived and breathed law for her entire life. It is almost as if her sibling is the law school. Harvard Law School has been such a big part of her life that Hart's obsession could seem repulsive to her.
DeleteI think the use of the word innocence is perfect here. I get the feeling that Hart is not losing himself, but more of just everything he held dear before Law School. The deeper and deeper he falls into this harsh world of studying and embarrassment the more he will lose of his former self. I also never noticed that during conversations on Susan's father Susan tries to back away or change topic while Hart is always so interested that he is almost blinded by his obsession to please Kingsfield. I also think this is what create the split between them.
DeleteI completely agree that Susan wants to step away from her father's Harvard law school world. Susan wants to be more independent. But Hart wants to become a part of Kingsfield world. Hart sees Kingsfield as a father figure. So maybe Hart wants to become more like a son to Kingsfield, and Susan wants to becomes less like Kingsfield daughter. Hart wants to become dependent of Kingsfield.
Delete1. I think the book portrays law school as dangerous and harmful. The characters can't seem to maintain any sort of healthy relationship, and some of them are actually loosing it. Kevin is so crazy that he needs to pretend to shoot a gun at people on the street just to calm down: "He felt almost tired enough to go to bed" (63). Law school is ruining Hart's ability to think clearly, so that even when he is sinking in a freezing cold lake, he is thinking about his cases. The "friends" that study together are always at each others throats. Law School is becoming such an obsession for the students that they are becoming inhuman. All they think about is their classes, and the things that used to matter or should matter don't anymore.
ReplyDelete2. Susan wants to live in the moment, and Hart has to know what is going to happen. I think that Susan realized that Hart might have been becoming so clingy to her because of her dad. Of course this would piss her off, because she is an independent, smart person. She knows that Hart is using her, has serious dependence problems, or both.
Susan isn't ready to "grow up". She says to Hart: "I'm going to live past twenty" (65). I think she means that even though all the law students lives are ending now, she isn't ready for that. Which is ironic because is much more mature than Hart, even though he is the one who is "becoming an adult".
3. I found it really bizarre in chapter 13 when Hart was in Kingsfield's study and he felt like and intruder. He was totally comfortable sleeping in his bed, but it felt wrong for him to be in his office. To me this really pushes the relationship that Kingsfield establishes with his students: in any sort of professional setting, he is the most feared man at Cambridge.
1. Cold, harsh and uncaring. From the old stone that all the buildings are made of and the deep damp passages that the students walk through. This made me relate to Kevin in the last chapter as he walks into the "belly of the beast" to find he has failed the practice exams. "Passages which were always a little damp. There was nothing to look at." (85) This moment sticks out because Kevin later goes on about enjoying the hallways in High School. The ability to make friendly conversation in the halls is gone here and even the people walking by are cold and uncaring. I can relate to Kevin here (not the failing of course) but from the halls of high school and would hate the feeling of being alone.
ReplyDelete2. Susan is uptight and strong. Maybe being raised in a house where the Law is the only rule gives her wisdom beyond her years. While I see Hart as a child that is being awoken into a harsh cruel world. Susan doesn't like the world she grew up in anymore. After the party for Kingsfield we see her state, "I do things like this because he wants me to, but that's all." (52) Susan was attracted by Hart because he was new to Law and not totally engrossed in it yet, but when he is falling in the lake we see for the first time that Hart thinks of Law on his own. I have a feeling that Susan is beginning to see Hart is slowly being consumed by Law.
3. Another moment that jumped out at me that didn't make any sense was chapter seventeen. Kevin had a repeater but no ammo. Is he just picturing his suicide? This very short but powerful chapter was creepy and an ominous foreshadowing of things to come I fear.
Graham, I really like the point you bring up about Kevin's memory of high school where he had friends. It becomes easy to dismiss Kevin. Some might find his pathetic. A loser. He's humiliated by Kingsfield and his study buddy Ford. The study group sees him as useless to their needs, which he may be, by the narrow definition of their needs. Yet he is the only one married—and to a wife who thinks the world of him. He had friends. He did well enough in college to get into HLS. Graham, I hope you're not the only one in class who can "relate" to Kevin. I'd rather know him than Bell, Anderson, O'Connor, and perhaps even Ford as well.
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ReplyDelete1. The picture of law school to me is that it’s incredibly hard. The phrase I would like to use is that it seems almost impossibly difficult to get through three years of it. I mean, so far, all of these students have been through, let’s see.. 10 years of elementary/middle school, 4 years of high school, and 4 years of college. That’s eighteen out of twenty-two years have been spent learning and preparing them for the next step. And for these students, that next step is probably a pretty giant leap into Harvard Law School, which by that list you posted, John, is THE #1 Law School. This is a ridiculous amount of pressure, because these students are going to Harvard. They’re paying that $75,800 for the name on a certificate and résumé and for the education that comes with the name. I think that the scene with Kevin and the gun shows it perfectly, as I commented on Cam’s post: "it was six in the morning.... his room was filled with his notes and law books, laid randomly on the sofa, coffee table and chairs. He's spent the night trying to catch up. A Volkswagen turned the corner, puttering up the street…. He leaned out… He squinted and pulled the trigger. The gun went ping as the hammer fell on the empty chamber. It was bad to pull the trigger when there wasn’t anything in the gun, but he didn’t like it anyway. It was a present from Asheley’s father." (63) Kevin is already having trouble with all that comes with law school, because he's the only student we've met so far that is married and he has the small fact that his wife's father is paying for his education hanging over his head. That's a TON of pressure he's under. He already flunked all of the practice exams, and it’s the first semester. I’d be going crazy if I was Kevin, or frankly, any one of the students we’ve met so far.
2. (also.. whoops! I though you just wanted us to respond to a classmate about what they said in general, not this particular question. My mistake, sorry!) I was so confused by this vignette when it showed up in between our two recent readings. But I sort of thought that it represented the foreshadowing of Hart’s relationship with Susan actually, which is a bit of a stretch but I think it fits. Hart keeps cornering Susan about their relationship and is either shot down or ignored or told to calm down, much like McNamara is saying that the boy’s question is unfair. Then eventually Hart just confronts Susan and asks her to tell him where it’s going, just like the boy yells at McNamara asking why he doesn’t know or care, and she tells him to not call. He can think about her but don’t call.
3. What struck me most was this specific line that Susan said to Hart: “You’ve got to understand that I’m real, that I’m going to live past twenty. You’ve got to put your head in mine.” (65). This just shows how much she disagrees with law school and even how much she dislikes being known as Kingsfield’s daughter because she knows what law school does to these boys, especially the ones that take their own life because of the pressure.
1. To me, this book makes me think of law school of the place that either makes you or breaks you. It is a place where a person is tested to see if law is truly what you want to commit for the rest of your life and not simply because you can be stuck with the price for the rest of your life. "But he had taught in this room for thirty years, and felt at home"(5), this makes me think that even if you graduate, you feel attracted to the school even if you hate it. Whether for better or for worse, law school changes your life.
ReplyDelete2. I feel that they are so different they feel attracted. Hart is trying to organize his life in order to accomplish everything he wants. On the other hand, Susan likes to be spontaneous and hates to have things plan out. I think this is due to Hart feeling like he has to know what to do in order to impress Kingsfield. Susan does not need to prove to anyone because she is sure of who she is. I don't think Hart knows who he is. I think Susan left him because she is afraid to become close to her and that she would become more like him.
3. I found the part in chapter 13 where Hart is reading Ford's dream interesting. It reminds me of how people say dreams might come true. I begin to wonder if this is a foreshadowing to some event in which someone might die. Also that it give us a more personal view of Ford and his relationship with Hart. I think in this moment, Hart became more intimate with Ford.
1. Osborn portrays Law School as depressing, especially Harvard Law. I have this perception of Harvard Law School as this school of success, and maybe in the end these students will be successful. But when I hear about someone going to Harvard Law, I'm impressed. But Osborn's portrayal of law school doesn't really make me want to go. I would almost pity the person who is attending Harvard Law. It sounds like a hell hole. It seems strenuous and depressing. The law school is made up of oversized, gray, cement, prison-like buildings. No one really seems happy. Hart doesn't even seem that happy when he's with Susan. The whole book has this depressing and gloomy tone, and maybe that was Osborn's intention. I think Kevin is a good, but slightly exaggerated, representation of law school. He shows the reality of law school. He's so stressed and anxious, but he's trying hard. Kevin tries to be that "ideal" Harvard Law student, the preppy, dark hair guy that shops at J.Crew. But Kevin is naive and anxious. "Kevin leaned forward and then swayed backward and forward again on his rocking horse chair. He was curious. A little scared and curious." Kevin is so innocent and nervous. He's swaying on his rocking horse chair.
ReplyDelete2. Susan and Hart both want completely different things. They're going in different directions. Susan wants to just live and have fun, but Hart wants to settle down. I think Susan just views Hart as just a fun guy to hang out with, but she doesn't want anything serious. She always seems so sarcastic and laid back, and Hart wants to have deep and serious conversations. I like the scene where Susan is naked and smoking a cigar in her dad's office, while Hart is trying to talk to her. I think Susan is tired of being serious all the time. Her dad is Kingsfield, who is a professor at Harvard Law, so maybe she feels her whole life has just been too serious. Susan wants to break free and be an independent woman. Hart wants complete opposite. He wants to be serious and become dependent on Susan and Kingsfield.
3. I thought the scene when Susan was naked and smoking a cigar in her dad's office and Hart became nervous was really funny and stuck out the most to me. You just wouldn't expect Kingsfield daughter to behave like that. She appears as the perfect Kingsfield daughter who's so popular with the law students, but she's completely opposite of the "typical" law student. She doesn't really like law school. She doesn't like the seriousness and pressure of law school. She's not like her father.
1. Law school sounds like an intense, volatile, all consuming place. The high amounts of stress and pressure are obviously getting to all of the characters. From Kevin's weird moment with the gun to O'conner freaking out in the study group to all of Hart's actions, law school is taking its toll on everyone. The line that best summarizes Harvard Law School and its affects on the students is said by Hart, "I really don't know what the fuck is going on. I don't understand anything." Harvard is supposed to be teaching the students, preparing them for the world outside of school. However, they are under an enormous amount of stress and they don't seem to retain anything. Hart has no clue what is going on with anything. His relationship with Kingsfield confuses him, as does his relationship with Susan, he is overwhelmed and, even in face of death, all he can think about are case books. Harvard has taken over his life. Or, to tie in the first vignette we discussed, perhaps, Harvard has taken his life.
ReplyDelete2. I agree (and slightly disagree) with Sam's point. I thought this vignette is taking a stab at the core of Harvard Law School. However, to counter sam, I don;t think it is showing what Harvard teaches the students but rather a massive flaw within the Harvard system. I agree with Cam in that I think that McNamara represents Kingsfield. Susan says of her father, "Do you think my father even knows who you are? Do you think he'd care, even if he did know? What do you think law school is about?" That student who stood up to McNamara was an undergraduate. He was full of life and enthusiasm, he stuck to his convictions, believing everyone has their own convictions and morals. Law school, to Susan and to me, as shown in this novel, is the death of that idealism and morality. Kingsfield isn't teaching them abou the outside world, he is teaching them how not to care. This could help them in becoming lawyers, or it could help them in becoming brainless, immoral clones of Kingsfield or McNamara.
3. I thought Kevin's peculiar moment, sitting at his desk, shooting inexistant bullets at a bus was quite fascinating. While I do not yet know the full meaning behind it I loved the connection between a private moment with Kevin and Ford's journal. They are having this odd shared story without having shared it with each other. It obviously ties them together, connects them and the connection, I believe will inevitably tie back to Harvard Law School and Kingsfield himself. I think the pressure is close to reaching its pinacle and it may take one (or more) students down with it.
I agree with Zoe that the appearance of McNamara means more about the atmosphere of the school in general than it does about Kingsfield specifically. The interesting thing about McNamara's appearance is that he was a real person, so we have this interesting dichotomy between the fictional and real worlds. It is easy for me, and easy for everyone, to caricature Kingsfield in with everything the students hate about the law school, but knowing different things about McNamara makes it harder. I think the most important aspect of the scene is the student's anger, not what McNamara represents.
DeleteWhat I gather from the words of Osborne is that Law School is a boot camp. It is not only a place where one goes to learn, but it is also a place to suffer. Like a military training camp, half the time the students are learning useful information, and the other half they are experiencing stress, depression, bitterness, and the heavy burden of expected perfection. Like a boot camp, there are those who die trying (suicide), those who pass only to die in the future, those who survive, and those who end up becoming officers. Whether or not you succeed in the school is an 'all or nothing' ordeal; one slip up and you've lost. On page 27-28, Hart reflects this sentiment with his explanation of the student body. "Class has quickly divided into three factions. One was composed of those who sat in the back of the room. They had forever given up... The second group were the students who... lived in admitted constant fear... The last group... had courage."
ReplyDelete2. This vignette feels like an expression of the sentiments of the students towards Kingsfield. Doesn't Kingsfield care about what he is doing to his students? After reading over some other comments, I found that I am basically in 100% agreement with Cam.
3. Chapter 17, when Kevin was holding the gun and aiming it at cars. This scene just seems so ominous and foreboding. The fact that Kevin, after staying up all night trying to keep up with his law papers, finds himself in a comatose state playing with his gun and aiming it at cars/people points to his ongoing demise. It seems like Kevin is going to be the first victim that we see in this book to have a law-school-break-down.
The point that Osborn makes about the law school that is the most salient feature of the extraordinary difficulties that the students have to face is the near-constant exhaustion of everyone. It makes you envision everyone walking around like zombies, getting no sleep at all. "It was some kind of record. Jesus. The last person awake, or the first one up." (35) And who could blame them, with all the work they have to do? The pressure is tangible in the Chapter 19 meeting of the study group. The members are constantly lashing out irritably at each other.
ReplyDeleteFrom reading the other blog posts, it looks like I was not the only one initially confused about McNamara's appearance in between chapters 12 and 13. To me, the boy yelling at McNamara is a way for Osborn to show just how frustrated the students at Harvard Law are with their work. Osborn put it in there to give the reader an idea of what it feels like to be under so much pressure to perform, and then to have the chance to go nuts at somebody, to really stick it to them. The scene displays the sort of rebellion against the establishment that would be impossible at the Law School.
"Something's happened to your mind...You were fresh before, you weren't like other people in Cambridge." Right after Hart almost gets himself killed falling through the ice, Susan pushes him away. She's seen how hard Harvard law is and knows what the people who attend it are like, but she still thinks that something has changed with Hart. This is evident when he starts thinking about contracts, slipping into hypothermia out on the ice. It has become the natural state of his mind, studying endlessly.
1.
ReplyDeleteThe image of law school that has been painted has been painted in monochromatic shades: dark colors such as grey, no crisp colors such as white. For this law school is built on tradition, as we see from the "rows and rows of smelly Law Reviews" and the collected notes of all the professors. The institute initiates a sort of educational darwinism, where those that adapt correctly to the current situation survive, while those that do not are left behind to fall. A perfect example of this is the triple tiered social system in Kingsfield's class; there are those that take the initiative to speak in class, have the gall to raise their hands, to evolve into something more than a blank page that the professor fills with his or her lectures, and they will succeed and survive. Through such a system the institute shapes it students, as Susan notices: Hart is changing. In a word, the law school is darwinistic.
2.
I feel that this expresses the suppressed feelings that the students feel, the sentiments that they should be screaming at Kingsfield, "don't you care?"
3. For everyone. What moment in the reading particularly jumped out at you—and why?
The scene that caused me to halt the standard rhythm of reading was when Kevin reflects upon his old school, how he enjoyed walking in the halls and socializing, but how here all that he receives is quizzical looks. I believe this expresses the scene of law school extremely well, in the fact that everyone is alone, everyone is for him/herself. Even within the study group, there is no real unity but a beneficial existence.
1) At this point in the book, I would describe Harvard Law School as lifeless. The concrete thinking and lack of abstract methods turn youthful college kids into intellectual machines. The intense focus on the grades and the work create a sterile environment that sucks the joy and emotion out of life. It tears apart relationships and turns them into competitions. “Who do you think you are? King shit? You don’t run things, you don’t run me.” The tense environment has turned the group, that was created to combat stress, into a competition for control and power.
ReplyDelete2) “Now he lives and breathes Harvard Law, and cannot give his time to anything else.” – Alex Lin.
I agree with Alex in that Harvard has taken over Hart’s life, and is the clear priority over his relationships and affairs outside of class. Harvard has planted insecurity in Hart, and he now sees Susan as a source of stability and security. He is anxious to plan out his future because his future in law is all but secure.
3) The moment that stood out to me was the scene where Hart and Susan are lying in bed and Hart is considering his options of dealing with Susan. Susan is such a mystery to him and that both appeals to him and repels him from growing close to her. He thinks about attempting to be mysterious himself and walk out, or dramatically propose to her. He can’t stand the fact that she doesn’t know what she wants and its ironic because she knows much more than he does.
1. Law school is painted as a serious and desolate place. There are few, if any, carefree moments in the book. A moment that really stuck out to me was when Hart said, "This is our chance...We can burn the whole school down." This really shows the bitterness that the school has already instilled in Hart. This ties into Susan's question: why are you in law school? These men have chosen to go to Harvard Law School, but there motives for going are still unclear.
ReplyDelete2. I agree with Erin: Hart and Susan want completely different things in their lives. Hart is trying to "get organized" and tie everything together in a nice little bundle so that he can have some sense of control in his life. Susan is very live and let live. Hart is finding it harder and harder to live in the moment. I think what really triggers Susan to run off is the fact that Hart was acting suicidal in the lake. At least, that's the sense that I got. "He welcomed the numbness the ice brought. He didn't want to move." Susan sees this, and she realizes that she could never have a healthy relationship with Hart.
3. The moment that really stuck with me was when Hart started explaining to Susan how special her father made him feel, and she bluntly said, "Do you think my father even knows who you are? Do you think he'd care, even if he did? What do you think law school is all about?" Susan brings up some very interesting and hard questions that Hart tries to avoid. Why is he going through all of this in the first place? He illusions of Kingsfield are put to the test, and so were mine. I realized that Kingsfield has no idea who Hart is.
ReplyDelete1.) The image I get of Law School is that you have no time for anything except for studying. I mean literally you fall asleep and wake up with law school all over your life. I know Cam said this part already but this is literally what the novel is painting in my mind of Law School as well, "Ford was there, lying on his back, still dressed, like a Mexican taking a siesta except that Ford's sombrero was a law book spread out over his face.” Yes, Hart at one point does still send letters to his family and his girl, but it’s not like he’s actually doing any sort of human relating. The only people he really develops almost-friendly relationships with are his study buddies who don’t seem to get along and Susan he is emotionally cut off. Hart dos have time for Susan but most of the time and most of the scenes are in school and about a teacher, a lecture, study groups, or something study related. Law School doesn’t really seem fun and warm and welcoming but rather like boot camp for the mind and soul.
2. Adding on to what I commented on Sohail’s post, I do see the relationship between McNamara and the students in Kingfield’s class but I also definitely saw the attackers as Hart when he reaches over the tell Ford to shut up when he is ganging up on poor Kevin who wants to study. Perhaps I could say this is also one of the two moments that stuck out to me the most. But the fact that the attacker assumes that McNamara doesn’t know because he doesn’t care is a quite unfair. There are millions of people that have died that millions of people don’t know about and it’s not because one doesn’t care it’s because the population is too big for us to know everyone. On the contrary, Hart was sticking up for Kevin and putting a stop to the attack.
3. The scene in which Hart wants to talk to Susan about what he’s feeling and wanting to say that he loves her. It is almost as if the roles of this romantic relationship have been reversed. Usually the girl tends to be or want to be more open and in this case Susan is really oblivious to what Hart seems think or what desires he seems to portray. For a while I keep thinking of Hart as Nick in The Great Gatsby but I realize he is a lot more than just an observer because he takes action.
Osborne presents an environment where one must put time,effort, and dedication to their studies. I think law school is pictured as a serious and hard process these students have to survive. You either fail or succeed like others have stated, and you have no time for anything except staying focused and studying. If you distract yourself or slack off you will lose track and most likely end up a failure. Every student is on their own and they may have study groups but they will have tely on their own knowledge and skill to pass. They must also take and withstand onstacle and everything else thats comes their way. Susan tells Hart, "if you start thinking like that you'll never be able to survive. What do you think law school is all about? You have to ignore it or you have to be able to take it."
ReplyDeleteOsborne is showing the difference in the way Sarah and Hart view their time/experience at Harvard law. Sarah seems more care free and like a person who just lives life they way it is and comes to her. She enjoys the moment and doesn't worry to much about the future or what she does and how she acts. Compared to Hart who is worrying about Kingsfield and wining a war with him and always being prepared to answer his questions. He is also worrying about the relationship and getting married and his future with Sarah.
I do not know if this is an answer for 3 but I am just interested in his book especially because I will be living something similar next year as a first year college student. If I worry about balancing life and school right now, I'm wondering if I will be a character like Hart, Kevin or even Sarah. I'm a bit worried about how the workload will be and interested to experience the social life part but going to college will be a stage of my life that I will have to manage properly and efficiently.
1. The book gives the impression that law school pushes some people nearly to the point of insanity. Before the ice breaks, Susan says "You're all crazy . . . all the law students. You can't let things go. Hart, something is happening to your mind." I think we begin to see the stress of law school taking its tole on all of the students. The scene where Kevin pretends to shoot the car that drives by was especially striking to me. The entire scene has a very surreal feeling to it.
ReplyDelete2. I totally agree with Jake about the meaning of the vignette. The entire Harvard Law School seems to have a feeling of apathy about it. All the students function like depersonalized robots. The only emotion they ever show is frustration. I think Hart's description of the icy water washing over his hands relates to this apathy. He says "They passed through numbness, out on the other side into heat." I think Hart stays where he is on the ice because it is the first time he has felt something since he came to HLS.
3.One of the moments that stuck out to me was when Hart was about to plunge into his icy death, and all he can think about are the cases. I think Susan is correct when she says that law school has done something to his mind. What could have easily been his dying thoughts were about the cases in his contract law class. Law school has very nearly consumed his mind at this point.
Law school seems like an isolated island in the middle of an ocean of people. It slowly consumes you like a parasite in your brain almost. The part when Ford is talking about life outside of HLS, he speaks as if it was a lifetime away. "You know, right now, or tomorrow, when you're thinking about contracts, forty thousand teenagers are jumping into bed with each other. Forty thousand teenagers are getting pregnant, killing themselves. Fucked up, crazy-ass kids. Everything is happening." All of the students are alienated from their own lives while they struggle to achieve the impossible, they are simply caught up in achieving and not thinking about their quality of life. It is an ongoing competition with themselves and others. They are constantly being challenged to the point where only the challenge matters. Only the outcome is of any importance, and the sacrifices become more and more.
ReplyDeleteSusan has seen her dad, she knows the law school type. She understands that mentality so well that she is able to see past it. See past the desperate thirst for prestigious victory. So when she finds that Hart is being more and more consumed by the force that is HLS, she becomes uninterested. Hart becomes just another guy, who's transforming into just another lawyer. Susan is smart though, as she claims to be, she has seen what it is like to be a lawyer and she realizes that becoming one is not the path to happiness. Hart is simply a confused fool following whatever small scent of right he can find. He is trying so hard to hold on to anything concrete, in order to have something to build his foundation upon, something to work for other than work itself.
It struck me when Susan said "they put people away in that place", talking about the married dorms, like she's referring to it as a jail. Her perspective is completely opposite that of Hart and it appears as if she is repulsed by the entire concept of this engulfing system that is Harvard Law School. She's a rule breaker and a rebel, and that is why Hart is so attracted to her. Susan is free from any kind of pressure. She recoils from it, whereas Hart just wants to be good. He wants to create calm and order amongst her chaos and the chaos around him.
1. Law school is totally life-consuming and mind-altering. These characters think about nothing but school. Ford says, "Everything in the world is happening, while you're sitting around reading cases or calling your girlfriends." Law students don't have time to know about the world because some how a case becomes more important or more compelling than absolutely anything else that's happening. The ones that don't succeed are the ones that don't fully commit everything they have to being the best lawyer, or the best law student they can be.
ReplyDelete2.I agree with others in that McNamara represents Kingsfield. I find it interesting how the student in the vignette asks, "How many children have been killed in Vietnam?" We've talked about how law school and/or Kingsfield is "sucking the souls" out of students. Maybe the question is how many students has Kingsfield turned into lifeless, unemotional, detached lawyers who seem to have not an ounce of childhood left in them.
3. I found it interesting when Susan and Hart were sitting in Kingsfield's study and Hart felt like an intruder. He had just slept in his bed and felt fine about it but felt wrong being in his study. I loved when he was looking around at the pictures and Susan says, "You're behaving just the way he'd want you to behave." It makes Kingsfield sound even more pompous and calculating than I thought before. It makes it sound like he has this grand master plan that is starting to play out.
1. To me, law school almost seems like a prison where you are slowly being tortured. A hellish trial that you put yourself through must endure. Susan says “You’re all crazy . . . all the law students.” And, as Kingsfield’s daughter, she is speaking from experiences, watching these kids come and go. What we are reading reflects that. We see the study group, so confident, slowly deteriorate into a bunch of arguing kids. Ford also comments on how outside of this school, this building, there is so much more happening that they are missing out on.
ReplyDelete2. I too agree with Jake that the student’s outrage towards McNamara reflects the students’ feelings towards Kingsfield. He is pushing them to their limits, and is totally separated from them. Ford says “Kingsfield has been giving these parties for the last twenty years.” Kevin is being pushed to desperation, and Kingsfields keep hammering away.
3. The part that really came out to me was the scene with Kevin and the gun. He’s pointing it down the window, and aiming it at a car. This reminded me of that second vignette where the student kills himself, except Kevin would be committing murder instead. And, if I’m not mistaken, someone else in the story had a Volkswagen, and I believe it was Ford.
The picture of the law school that we are getting is the one of a very serious, unhappy place, where, “[something happens] to your mind.” Students arrive with the simple wish of studying to become lawyers, but once there they realize the pressure to survive and succeed is so great that it seems insane. O’Connors complaints about how many times the study group should meet prove just how crazy and stressed all the students are for a course that is an introductory one anyways, not one which would normally preoccupy so many students. Ford doesn’t even “allow” O’Connor to leave the study group because the group needs as much help as they can get.
ReplyDeleteLike Cam and others have said, I agree that McNamara could be a parallel to Kingsfield in this vignette. The student who yelled out at McNamara, “‘Why don’t you know, don’t you CARE?’” is expressing what I think many students in Kingsfield class are feeling, which is why doesn’t Kingsfield care more about us individually? The students just feel repetitively attacked by Kingsfield. Kingsfield gives the impression that he does not care about how many of his students make it to become successful lawyers, just like it’s suspected that McNamara does not care about how many children have died in Vietnam.
I was struck by how much of a weak character/figure Kevin is turning out to be. The fact that he is called by his first name, rather than last like everyone else, already degrades him. At first when he was presented in the book, I thought that since he was being financially supported by his wife’s father maybe he was the student who would have it easier than the others, but I was wrong. He is under tons of pressure to do well in school exactly because his wife’s father is paying for it. He also seems to have a more sensible character and in the law school world that translates to weak and not competitive enough to survive. I am anxious to find out how things turn out for him since he flunked all those practice exams and had no clue that he had done so poorly.
I think that the picture is of something ancient but living and breathing in a sense nonetheless. Kingsfield, the oldest working faculty member, evokes an image of the old but persistent spirit of the school. The scene in which Ford and Hart are sneaking through the library really represents this well for me because, in the bowels of the stacks, which they think are empty, they find Kingsfield awake and lingering. Hart “knew who the figure was. There wasn’t any question. The figure was pacing, moving in a circle. Hart could tell by the gestures-so ingrained in his mind that the smallest movement set off a special blast”(38). I think that this recognition is so important because it also represents the comfort that Ford receives from Langdell and how he feels that “it covers”(36) him. I do not know why this image sticks with me so much but I think it is very important and representative of the spirit of the HLS institution.
ReplyDeleteThe scene that stood out to me was when Hart and Susan are sitting in Kingsfield’s study. I feel like the naked image of Susan is so vulnerable, as are the students in Kingsfield’s classes, and the only thing that keeps her from actually being vulnerable is her strength and assuredness. It makes me think a lot about what the HLS students could be if they overcame their fear of Kingsfield or being embarrassed. It is an image of something that is inherently vulnerable but made strong by a sense of comfort and strength within the mind.
Law school is a place that changes you. It's a crazy, messed up place that makes something "happen to your mind." It's a place where your girlfriend can turn out to be your professors daughter, or a place where you get up super early just to sneak into the library for a few moments. It's a place that makes you want to walk out onto a barely frozen lake. Law school is a crazy place that seems to make you go crazy.
ReplyDeleteI think that Hart and Susan are at different parts in their relationship. Hart is looking to the future while Susan is just trying to live in the present. This is also really funny, because the way I make this sound is that Hart is the more mature one. Yet, Hart is the one who leads Susan onto a frozen lake to "play". Susan is just trying to live life, while Hart is concentrating on the future. He's always thinking about finishing law school, then getting married, then having children. The reason that Hart has started to think this way is because of law school.
The scene that really jumped out at me is the scene where Kevin goes and sees the guidance counselor about his practice exam. I just feel so bad for Kevin, because he wants to succeed so badly, but he's doomed to fail. I feel like Kevin is going to be that one character who has a mid-life crisis have way through the book.
The picture of the law school to me is like a haunted house. It is something you can never get out of your mind, and it constantly sits in the back of your mind and mocks you. Like when Hart and ford go and visit the law school, it is creepy and it is the first place they go to, like it is the only thing they are thinking about. The inside is where the remnants of old law students go, their entire lives left in books, and all their hard work haunting the new students. The law reviews are like the crazy mirrors and when ford and hart walk by all they see are failures instead of what they really are which is hardworking smart and talented people.
ReplyDeletei completely agree with Isabella. When Hart first came he was different. He wasn't. or didn't show that he was consumed with HLS, or Kingsfield and he seemed like he actually liked Susan, and was interested in more than just school. Once he becomes consumed with school he is no longer different. He is just another guy.
One moment that stuck out to me a lot in the book right now was the part where Kevin shot the car. I didn't understand why, or even how this happened and I do not really see a reason other than the fact that he was annoyed by the sound. it made me think about the vingete that talked about suicide.