Notice in the conclusion of this below the pamphlet Roma shows Lingk: "Make your dreams come true." In both classes you mentioned that selling really is selling a dream.
A moment from Act Two, Roma and his enlightened racial views:
And finally, where your reading stopped, with Moss's "farewell speech."
Well, these clips do prove that, a. David Mamet has a wicked sense of humor and a way with words, and b. Al Pacino in his prime was the man (Not that Ed Harris nor Jack Lemmon are slouches). The film came out in 1994, and now, almost twenty years later, Pacino, as we know, is spearheading the play's revival, but not as the young hotshot Roma but as the washed up Levine. I personally would love to see this production.
A couple questions to help our discussion over the next couple days.
1. Why salesmen? We talked a little about selling in class, but why make your heroes salesmen, whether its Willy or the men in Mamet or, today, a Don Draper in Mad Men? We may see these men as some of you said in class as "sleazy" or "shysters," but the fact is they don't see themselves this way—Willy didn't and Roma doesn't either. "'I got to argue with you, I got to knock heads with the cops, I'm busting my balls, sell you dirt to fucking deadbeats money in the mattress, I come back you can't even manage to keep the contracts safe, I have to go back and close them again...'" (62). Roma, approve of him or not, is busting his ass: he's working. So what makes, perhaps, the salesman such a resonant figure in contemporary American culture, enough so that three of the great works of popular culture in the last sixty years have put them at their center?
2. What do you think of these men? Are they heroic at all? Are they likeable? Are they good people? Do you care about them? If Miller gave us a tough group of characters to warm up to, arguably Mamet has made it even tougher with these men. Or maybe not. So what's your reaction to the characters here? And why?
3. Reaction to the clips above? Do they make understanding the text and characters easier? Is it the way you heard the dialogue in your head? What particular jumped out at you in one of the clips?
That's enough for now. Remember, quiz tomorrow. See you then.
1. I think the reason that Mamet uses businessmen in Glengarry Glen Ross is because businessmen are the considered the core of America. America’s business is business and we run on businesses and we rely on them to set the standard for this country. I think by choosing businessmen and by showing just how hard they are working (like Roma) and the kinds of challenges they face in a society where everything is riding on the fate of their sales, shows how fragile the infrastructure of America is. We see someone like Aaronow, probably the only one with a conflicting conscious, and to me it seems as if he is going to just fall to pieces if someone puts one more stressful thing on his back. I also think the time period in which these plays where written has a lot to do with character choices. After the Great Depression, the 20th century hit a huge economic boom for a while and business was at the heart of that and its from there that we get great characters like Don Draper from Mad Men. But we have also seen that when business fails to meet the mark, society collapses and no one knows how to fix it, so I think Mamet was smart in picking businessmen that don’t hold back about how hard it is in their field of work. I think he is trying to highlight and ask the audience to question how we structure our society.
ReplyDelete2. I think there is a severe difference between the characters. You have the Alpha’s like Roma and Moss who’s whole personality is based on the ability to exert power over the little guys like Aaronow and Lingk. Then you have the kind of middle guys who try to keep order between everyone but they aren’t very successful like Williamson and Levene. I think they’re all very different and it’s hard to say if I like them or not because they’re businessmen and its hard to tell when they’re being honest. I think Aaronow is the only really humane one and I think out of all of them I like him the most. Roma is a little heartless, Moss is too much of an Alpha, Williamson is doesn’t play fair and Lingk just seems like a chump.
3. The clips help me read the emotion better. When I was reading Moss’s farewell speech, I didn’t read it in an angry voice and then when I saw it acted out, I was surprised to see that much emotion held there and I thought Roma would be a little more aggressive than Moss. I really did like Moss’s reaction because I think it shows that there is a serious power struggle between Roma and Moss and to see them kind of duke it out a little helped me understand the relationship between all of the characters a little bit better.
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ReplyDelete1. Businessmen represent the ideal american value, Individuality. Businessmen are independent, struggling to make it in life and working their asses of to achieve their dreams. These are all characteristics of any american ideal, whether it be pulling yourself up by the bootstraps or scraping by to support a family. Businessmen can be seen as sleazy because they can do and will do anything it takes to achieve their goals, like throwing fellow businessmen under the bus or stealing leads as we see in Glengarry Glen Ross. But I think businessmen represent something immortal in american culture and that is the idea of Individual success and financial power. In reality that is not so easy, but it is an undying ideal that many stories touch on.
ReplyDelete2. I can relate to these characters. Working as a salesman is widely considered a sleazy job stereotypically, but these men are doing what every american is doing now; they are getting ahead of the next guy in line. There are some within the group that are very different from others, like Levine vs Roma, but they are all after the same goal and I respect their efforts.
3. When we read the lines in class it is hard not to laugh at the scenes when you watch your friends recite them, so these clips really showed the more serious side of the dialogue and the anger that shines through Moss and Roma. The one part that struck out to me were the pauses between the words, and how much more drawn out they were in the movie than when we recite the play in class. It adds a realistic aspect to the conversation rather than a power struggle of who gets to talk.
1. I think there’s something behind the idea of putting on a suit, but still going out and doing hard work. You’re not working construction or in a factory; you look like a professional. Yet, you have to go out and really earn your living. The two ends of the spectrum are the rich guy who sits behind a desk all day and the guy who works outside with dirt on his hands. The salesman is somewhere in between. It combines the “American” virtue of hard work (having to go out and fight every day, working on commission) with the American dream of using your brain more than your muscles. It also holds the promise of a big payoff if you work hard enough. Whether you succeed or not is up to how much effort you’re willing to put into the job. Or, at least, that’s what the job claims. That’s how it’s supposed to be. I don’t think that many of them, regardless of how hard they work, will become part of the true upper class. It’s the perfect representation of middle class America. It doesn’t really require much education, but it’s far from mindless work.
ReplyDelete2. I do sort of like the characters. I find it kind of hard to not root for anyone when I’m reading a book or watching a movie/TV series. This play, along with DOAS , shows what goes on behind the scenes of some of the most despised professions we know. Nobody likes dealing with salesmen whether it’s some guy at a garage sale trying to get you to pay $30 for a rug with a mysterious stain or a real estate agent trying to sell you a worthless piece of land for $500,000. They’re all looked upon as sleazy douches, but these stories can show the other side. They’re just trying to make a living. It’s their job, and if they can’t sell they’re screwed. It might be easy for us to say that they should get nicer job, but that’s not really an option for many people. These are normal guys. They probably know how to turn off their salesmanship when they’re not trying to sell. The only reason I might not like to be around them is because they probably have tendency to get a big head when they get a good streak going.
3. Again, the clips made it much easier to understand. I’m getting more of it when I read now, but the clips help a lot. Especially when there are a bunch of people in one scene all chiming in. I like the way that Al Pacino plays Roma. When I read it, I imagined him more hyper and loud, but I like the way that he stays calm and says the lines quietly. It makes it seem more realistic and believable. It makes him seem more honest this way. I also like how Lingk is played. He says one word every once and a while, but the actor did a good job of showing how Lingk didn’t really understand what was going on.
1. Salesmen embody one aspect of the American Dream because of their commission. If you sell, you get paid, if you don’t, then you starve. Unlike teachers, office workers, or cashiers, salesmen don’t get paid by the hour and depend on their own skill to carry them through their life. There used to be hunters, where they either got an animal or went hungry, and now there are these salesmen. Also, their occupation Is so common in the United States (after all, the United States’ business is business) that many people can relate to their ups and downs, which makes these people so interesting.
ReplyDelete2. Moss is unlikeable (he’s a mean guy), Roma is too good at what he does (meaning all he cares about is winning and is too absorbed with that one goal) but seems like a nice enough person, and Levene is a red dwarf (but still thinks he’s a star). Aaronow and Williamson just want to do their job, but the others are bothering them. I wouldn’t say any of them are heroic, but I like Levene and Aaronow. Levene has an admirable drive to succeed (like Willy), and Aaronow seems like an honest guy just trying to get through his day, but I don’t care about what happens to either of them.
3. I really liked how smooth Roma was with Lingk in these clips. If I hadn’t known they were complete strangers, then I would’ve thought they were good friends. Otherwise, the clips were pretty much what I pictured in my head. What I didn’t picture in my head was Levene just standing in the corner while Roma and Moss fought it out, mostly when he tried to join in the conversation and Moss screams “SHUT UP!”, and that helped form my dislike of Moss even more.
1. I hate to repeat exactly what Tanja's main point was, but it seems to me that the salesmen theme we've observed over the last few books is based on the fact that America is based on a capitalist society, and what could be better to represent a capitalist society than salesmen. The use of salesmen is one of the factors that actually designates these novels as 'American.' They are so representative of the American lifestyle that if one was to write an American novel they are the obvious choice of character. But in addition to all of this writing about salesmen as opposed to certain other occupations allows you to discuss class on a more upfront level. The idea that a salesmen essentially lives off of his commission gives the opportunity to discuss a day to day lifestyle (Willy was a prime example of this). Overall the decision to use salesmen for an American novel just seems to be the obvious decision based on the lifestyle that is associated with the US.
ReplyDelete2. I don't think my opinion here will come as a surprise to anyone, but I honestly don't think any of these characters are easily likable. On the other hand I in no way dislike any particular one of these characters, but I certainly think Mamet has put us in a position in which it is hard to pass judgment on any of these characters. We have had multiple instances throughout the course of the book that lead me to believe that (other than Moss) their actions are as a result of necessity. This stems from Roma's comment, "'Cause I don't have to eat this month." But we've also been exposed to the other side of Roma, when he scammed Lingk into buying Glen Garry Highlands.
3. While I enjoyed the clips, and generally they have helped me understand the text better, I actually felt like they were very similar to the way I read it in the first place. My main realization was that Al Pacino is a great Roma. The one thing that the clips really helped me with was setting the scene during our reading for tomorrow. I couldn't really imagine what the office was supposed to look like, but the clips set it in my mind pretty well.
1. I agree with both Sohail and Alex, salesmen represent a very intersting medium between manual labor and professionalism. I think that the salesman is used to portray the classic American lifestyle is because they are so self-reliant, self-absorbed, and money obcessed because their source of income is so variable. It's a constant game for them. It's the ultimate portrayl of Americans "playing that game" in order to end up on top. It's the perfect way to portray this mindset with salesmen because it's clear they're in it for the money, and they'll do anything to make sure that nothing gets in their way. It's also a very interesting profession because the competition of getting to the top is so fierce and unrestrained.
ReplyDelete2. These characters tire me out. They are constantly working, but to me, their job is scummy. To me, especially after watching these scenes in the clips, these men seem like their running around in circles trying to find the next thing that'll make them money. Nothing abour them seems stable and secure. I think that's what they're all looking for: security. I do not see any heroes in this play. When I think of heroic figures, I think of self-less people who are not living life for themselves. So far I see no one this caring.
3. For me, the clips definitely helped me picture the characters alot better, but I still get confused on who's who and who's on top because their aren't many actions to associate with each character besides Aaronow and Moss. I didn't picture the scene with Lingk and Roma as the way it played out in the clips. Like how Lingk was so comfortable and nonchalant about this random guy talking about random stuff. And how Lingk had his arm lazing behind Roma? That was all strange to me. Not at all the picture I had.
1. The original "American man" was a cowboy but it evolved into a a salesman. Like Sohail said, the salesman gets to look nice and physically show his wealth, but there is no doubt about it that he is doing hard work. I think there's something to say for the fact that the young Roma who tells lies to close deals is successful, but the older more desperate Levene is not even on the board. Being a good salesman has nothing to do with integrity, as we've seen in "Death of a Salesman." The idea behind it is sincere: a man must work for his means and it comes down to the individual; if you can't close a deal than it's no ones fault but your own. But this makes it a trickier business than intended. It makes people do low things in order to succeed. It stops being about being well-liked and it becomes about winning. Mamet uses businessmen to pose a question (like most of the other books we've read this year) of "How far are we willing to go in order to succeed?"
ReplyDelete2. I'm not sure if I like or dislike any of these characters. Their actions are particularly admirable, but this is business. What's the point of working at a job when you can't advance? Even the more respectable characters seem dishonest. I don't want to write any of the characters off, but I don't have a liking for any of them.
3. I do like having the clips to be able to string together what's happening in the play. Like we've said multiple times, it gets confusing. What really stood out to me is Pacino's performance as Roma. I made the comment in class that Roma is a pretty sleazy character, and the first clip particularly makes me believe that even more. I imagined the scene as a lighter conversation. Pacino looks almost suicidal to me. I can't see myself trusting this man to sell me property if I was in Lingk's position.
I think the reason salesmen are used so much to represent contemporary, modern American men is because working in sales is one of the only jobs where one's pay is completely affected by and reliant on one's actual success at doing their job. A salesman's success is completely in his own hands. It depends on how good at his job he is and how much he is actually able to sell. This is not the case with most jobs. For example, two science teachers might have the same salary, even though one puts much more effort and time into teaching and as a result is a much more successful teacher than the other. And still, they will still go home at the end of the day with the same amount of money, and there isn't really a way for either to get ahead of the other. But with sales, it is possible for people with the same job to get ahead of each other, to physically and directly make success for themselves. When one thinks of the cliché American dream or American dream stories, it is always about businessmen, salesmen who were able to build themselves up, to succeed by their own doing. A job in sales is the American job that allows one to reach that cliché dream, and so Both in Death of a Salesman and Glengarry Glen Ross, they use this job in order to grapple with the true American Dream and if it really can be achieved by building yourself from the ground up, in this case through Sales.
ReplyDeleteI do like these men, almost all of them actually. Not because they are heroic, I don't see any of them as heroes. Not because they are good, likeable people, because they simply aren't. I like them because they are so incredibly human. They all have their flaws, and it seems to me that they all have goods sides as well. For example, we have the arrogant, self-centered and selfish Roma, who also I think shows a different side in the last few pages of today's reading. He is in competition with Levene, yet after Moss comes in and gives his whole pity party spiel, he supports Levene and congratulates him on his job well done. It is clear that, as humans do, all of the characters are struggling. They are struggling with each other and their jobs, but they're also struggling with themselves, with moral decisions and what is right vs. what will benefit themselves. These are all very human struggles and because they are so very real it is very easy for me to relate to them, and since I have sympathy and empathy, I do like them.
For the most part, all of the clips fit what I envisioned while reading, and they do make it easier to understand the text. With the exception of the first one, I would say. When I read Roma's speech, I saw him as this sleazy, sort of scumbag guy who comes in and just starts spraying shit things in order to make a quick buck. I saw him as that half bald salesman in the movies who wears the orange blazer and yellow checkered pants. But the scene above has really helped me to not write off Roma as much, to see that what he does truly is an effective way of selling. The scene really shows me that he truly is working hard to succeed. For example, and this is something that really stood out for me, Roma is so calm and friendly towards the guy he is pitching a sale to. He talks an an intimate way that suggests they have been friends for a very long time. To simply put it, he does his job effectively. All of the scenes above have helped me to not write off the characters for that matter, to really grasp each of the character's individual struggles.
1. I think that the reason both of these authors, Arthur Miller and David Mamet, chose salesmen is because of the idea that men can work hard and earn their way to success. It is a view of the American Dream that regardless of what 'class' you come from, you can work very hard and be successful. I also think that it has to do with how America is portray. This country is based on the commerce of buying and selling. It has been like this for many years and many have become rich by selling the right product or service. This implies that anyone can turn to commerce and become successful.
ReplyDelete2. I find it very hard to find any of the characters heroic. Applying to what was said about Biff last week, I find it difficult to find a change in this characters. I feel neither dislike for Levene, Lingk, or Williamson; however, I dislike Moss greatly. I find him arrogant and that he feels that the world is at his feet. I would say the same about Roma but the last scene where Roma is talking to Levene showed a different perspective of him because he respected Levene, something Moss did not. Roma may also act like the world should bow down to him, but at least he is selling and closing deals. I also dislike him because of the way he treats Aaronow. I feel pity for Aaronow because it seems that he is lost and is getting pushed around by Moss. I particulary do not care about any of them, except maybe Aaronow, but I am interested to see how they all end up. I am not sure is I care about Aaronow but I think that I simply feel pity for him.
3. I think that the clips are a great help at visualizing the dialogue. Mamet did a great job at writing the play and the actors in the play pulled it off magnificently. I think that Al Pacino did a great job and he fits perfectly as Roma. I would like to see how he does as Levene. I was surprise at how young Moss looks compare to Levene. I enjoyed Moss's "faraway speech" and I think that the way they showed Roma and Levene talking and being interrupted by Moss was great.
1. The reason Mamet and so many other writers use businessmen as their main characters is because it’s not very specific. There are salesmen of so many different things, from real estate to insurance, to whatever. The idea is that it’s a job and a role easily filled by many characters from the angry and sleazy Roma to the unsure and falling apart Willy Loman. Sure, like Cam says, they represent individuality, but to me, it’s a mold that they fit into and make their own. You can see in Glengarry Glen Ross just how much that’s true. All of these men come into work every day, wearing their nice suits, and their charming faces when they come face to face with a customer or client, but when they’re in the office, their true selves come out in battle with each other to be on top. I think that salesmen also represent that dog-eat-dog world that humans and animals live in and they represent it in any time frame and with any sort of characteristic you could ask for. The character of a salesman has a malleable form because you can make their job as vague or as detailed as you please and that can help change the story into what exactly the author is looking for, which may be the main reason why so many authors use the job of a salesman as a basis for their book.
ReplyDelete2. Actually I kind of like Roma. I think that his ability to be brash and very frank about things with a potential client is a breath of fresh air, though it’s a load of bullshit. I think that while, yes, he is only running after money, which can be considered sleazy, I think that so many people do that today and it’s just something that happens, so to me, he’s just a hardworking guy. I think his dialogue can just be really funny to be, because he sometimes gets ridiculous and it just makes me laugh while I’m reading this, which is one of the reasons why I like him. I’m not a huge fan of any of the other characters yet, mostly because I don’t feel a strong sense of relating to them or liking them yet, but I can definitely see myself liking Aaronow as a character later on in the book.
3. I really agree with Aldo about Pacino’s job as Roma and the farewell speech scene. Pacino really shows how much Roma stretches in each aspect of his job to score a sale, and it’s really helpful to watch the clips and read along. It really helps me to have it to help me visualize what’s exactly going on in the book. To me, the scene with Lingck and Roma stood out to me as well because it came out as strangely almost romantic in the movie, while I didn’t see it at all that way while reading it.
Since Friday I’ve been having a hard time coming to a conclusion about this. Why salesmen? It’ll be hard not to just go off someone else’ response but it does make sense that business is the business of America. Maybe Mamet just wants to show us how superficiality can get into anyone’s heart even the ‘best men’ of America. I mean clearly there is an unbalanced ladder of social status going on between the salesmen. No matter how hard they all work it really depends on what kind of luck/clients they get. I’m not really sure...Basically, like many have said the salesman is the typical commercial job any “American” gets.
ReplyDeleteI don’t particularly like or care about any one of theses salesmen. I can’t relate to any of them. They curse too much and at each other to gain my respect. There are many ways around issues as serious as these, but they decide to go out of their way to insult each other. They sound like teenage football players fighting about scores and bad touchdowns. As a reader, I don’t know anything about their personal lives enough to feel compassion for any of them. I only know their competitive, angry sides, which is never appealing to me.
The clips were fun to watch and definitely showed what I imagined in my mind. It’s typical to see these sort of arguments on tv or in movies but I still get surprised at how detached men are when they argue. As opposed to how women argue and fight, men just try to get on top of the next guy and be better than everyone. I guess the way that Moss screams “Fuck you!” so suddenly comes out at me. And then of course the indifference Roma showed after he left and turns to the guy and says, “you were saying...” They are all just so shameless and selfish.
1. I think the salesman being the "hero" of the story all ties back to what I said in my last blog about what this play is about. Competition. These men are fighting tooth and nail to make it onto the board. They are working their asses off to reach financial security. They show a (quite sad) truth about ourselves as humans, as Americans. They show the lengths we will go to make it in life. They show how being and lying bastard, being a cheater and a jerk, yet being liked and persuasive are imperative to our human survival. They exemplify survival of the fittest. These men are put into pre-historic conditions to fight to the death. They have to work for their success and that is the integral part of the American Dream, even if their working is immoral and brutal. These authors idealize yet critique these salesmen at the same time. The authors admire, I believe, the resilience and drive behind these men. Yet the authors critique the system that condones this brutal war fought out every day.
ReplyDelete2. I sort of like them, in a hating sort of way. They are all assholes. The most likable one is Arranow who was weak and got tricked into robbing his own company. I think they are harsh because they have to be, that's the way the system is set up. If they weren't salesmen who knows how they would be. I think most of them (Roma possibly not included in this) are not genuinely bad people, they are simply in bad circumstances. I do not like that they give into the brutal nature of the sales world, yet I do not dislike them as people or characters. They are all relatively strong-willed and very comical.
3. The clips help so much! I have a hard time sorting the characters when I read it to myself. They are all so similar that the blend together, seeing the clips really distinguishes them. Like Molly, the scene with Lingck and Roma was the most striking. Al Pacino timed everything so perfectly. I really felt like I would believe him, any one would buy anything from him. He embodies the idea of selling the dream. He works and works and plays up everything perfectly to sell something huge to a complete stranger.
1) The salesman is always struggling. No matter how hard he works, he will never be satisfied as long as their is more to sell. The salesman is a symbol for the American Dream because theres a sense of desperation in these men's actions. They are never successful, but they keep working, bounding towards the promise of success. Willy Loman and Moss are very different, but they are alike in their constant quest for fulfillment. These salesman seem sleazy because they are essentially giving people hope, knowing that what their selling will not live up to their expectations. The salesman is a symbol of failure and hard work at the same time.
ReplyDelete2) So far, I have no care for any character, and I don't think any of them are acting heroic. The office atmosphere feels like that of crabs in a bucket, each willing to risk the others career to better themselves. Moss is the most obvious of the characters, but they all seem to have no care for each other at all. Williamson is the only character we've met that isn't begging or attacking in the office. There is no friendship or camaraderie; only competitiveness. None of these characters are heroes, selflessness completely absent in this play.
3) The conversation between Roma and Moss is amazing. Both men perfectly capture the intensity of the situation and both actors play the parts perfectly. These two men are the only characters so far that I am really fascinated with. They both have such extreme personalities that when they meet, the result is unpredictable. I don't agree with either of these men, giving me a great perspective on their argument. I love watching the clips, it makes the choppy dialogue much more clear. The strange format of the book is often hard to translate but the clips show how dramatic this play really is. The acting in these clips is excellent and I plan to watch the full thing once we've finished the book.
1+2) This book deals mainly with the issues involved with business. It is a book about capitalism and corporate America, about the people who live to make money. No one embodies this more than a salesman. A salesman is someone who works for no cause other than to make a profit. Maybe somewhere in the world there is a salesman who wants to make the world a better place by selling his product, but in Glen Garry Ross, i don't think the salesman give a shit about what they are selling, much less their customers. In some ways, a salesman is the exact opposite of a volunteer worker. Where volunteers aren't about money at all, money is a salesman's main objective. Sure, it is honorable that these salesman work very hard and diligently, but I don't think that they have very honorable intentions. You can either choose to be a good business man or a good person, but it is very hard to be both of these things.
ReplyDelete3. I think that the clips definitely help a lot with envisioning the scenes. I especially liked the monologue scene, in which Roma tries to sell a random guy a new house. Also, it's interesting to hear the actual voices of the actors and how their voices rise and fall with the dialogue. I think that my interpretations are often times different than that of the actors, but I still enjoy listening to them and contrasting the two different points of view. For instance, in the Roma scene i imagined Roma getting extremely worked up as he made his speech, but in the movie he kept his cool the entire time.
1. I feel that salesmen represent hard working men but more than that they must go out and make their own living. If they fail to pull off the sale then they are the ones that get no money. If they don't preform they feel it the next day in their wallets. I think these men are shown as hero's because when they sell they are living a wonderful life. Levene enters saying he sold Mountain View for 82 grand with 12 grand in commission. In moments like these the salesman looks to be the ideal job. Working one day and making thousands of dollars, but in reality I think these authors such as Mamet and Miller want us to focus on the underlying concept of the dangers of this job. They all ask the question "What happens when you fail, when you can't make the sale?" The answer is not usually very pretty.
ReplyDelete2. These characters are very different in their personalities. Some are harsh even cruel like Moss who demands respect even when we haven't seen him accomplish anything (other than robbing the company?) so far. Others though are fine like Levene. I enjoy his character because in the very first scene we see him floundering, but he picks himself up and scores a big deal making a huge amount of money in one day. These men are interesting for sure always seeming to stutter and easily getting agitated. I don't care for them yet because I haven't seen a true act of kindness yet, nothing that I can relate to. They all seem very selfish and only think of bettering themselves.
3. It makes it easier to see when a character is talking to himself or when a character is directing a harsh line at another character. I thought the men would look nicer and younger. Al Pacino seemed much too old to be a salesman. I picture young energetic men running around making big sales and driving nice cars, but I guess that is what Mamet wants you to think. These clips helped open my eyes to the real world salesman and what they have to deal with everyday. That it isn't just fun and games. Being a salesman is hard work.
1. To be a good salesman requires something that not every person can have. Like Cam said, it's individuality. Salesman, as we have seen them depicted, aren't cubicle inhabiting pencil pushers. They have to apply themselves, and really make an impression. Roma gets a leg up in the conversation before he makes his pitch. He uses his presence to gain power and control. These themes resonate very strongly in American society. Business is about success; success is about power. Being a salesman is about creating an environment of confidence and control, even if it is complete bullshit.
ReplyDelete2. I think I do like these men. All of them have a very distinct presence. Roma and Moss are hotheads, and assholes, but they are working. To me their aggression comes off as professional, not personal. It's hard to say, because the characters definitely aren't nice, but I don't hate them.
3. I like the clips; they help me a lot with understanding the play. I really like how Pacino plays Roma, especially in the monologue. He played the monologue much smoother than I had read it at first, but it made sense. I was a little surprised by how Spacey played Williamson. In the clips he seemed much more passive than I had imagined, more of a pushover.
1. I think the reason salesmen are revered in our culture is because they are our passage way to the American Dream. What they are selling us, whether its a house in a subdivision or popsicles or cars, is what will help us achieve the picture perfect image of the American Dream. I think it’s incredibly weird how this position so celebrated. Salesman are really just groveling and making themselves inferior to the common man just to sell a product. If you strip away the prestige and the glamor of it, salesmen are simply glorified grocery clerks. I think the main reason the idea of being a salesman is so holy in our society is because of it’s relation to the American Dream and salesmen are our middlemen to the dream, which makes it such a coveted profession because in a way it is heroic because they are helping make individual’s dreams come true.
ReplyDelete2 I think their lack of heroic-ness and how they stick with their crappy job even though it is clearly killing them on the inside makes them likable in my eyes because it makes them seem realistic and more like actual people. I don’t find the misery they always voice or their complaining annoying, for some reason I find it endearing. I think if Mamet did portray these characters as perfect heroes who made people happy for a living I wouldn’t like them at all because what they’re doing isn’t really making a differences and they are not heroes. But Mamet isn’t doing this, and I find the characters likeable.
3. The clips do a great job of showing the passion and anger behind the words. In the play, you can tell that these characters are angry by the way they say fuck every few words. But in the clips, you can real feel the despair and how unhappy these people are, even the successful ones. The play is very well written, but it is written with the intention of it being acted and seeing it acted out makes the play much more powerful in my eyes.
1. Salesmen are held to such a high level of importance in the last few novels that we have read because their job is to sell a life, which can be seen as the most important job of all. Salesmen set the basis to these novels because they provide the characters with the idea of the American Dream which the characters then chase throughout the novel. I think there is no better job to write about than salesmen. They provide a portal for the every day man to become a person living the American Dream.
ReplyDelete2. I do not think they are heroic. This all seems very cheap and artificial to me. I like each of the men as characters, because they are exciting and intriguing, but not as people. I find Roma to be quite obnoxious. Even though he is a fantastic salesmen, he is selling people complete shit and I refuse to give him a round of applause for that. I also find each of the characters to be very realistic, or to at least fit what I think of when I think about salesmen.
3. Al Pacino is fantastic in these scenes. I think he does a great job of showing how desperate he is to get a lead and convince Lingk to fall under his spell. I love the passion in these scenes too, which helps me understand the emotions more than when reading the book. I agree with Jenny in that the play is so much more powerful when acted rather than read.
1. To be a good salesman… It’s very difficult. You have to convince someone to buy something that you know that they don’t need, but you have to convince them otherwise. And if you mess up, you paycheck goes down, because you’re not on a salary. You have to work hard at what you need to do. I feel like sometimes, this feels like the ideal job because you are just working, selling, and when you hit big, so does your wallet. Levene and Roma both, they are shouting for joy when they get those contracts.
ReplyDelete2. In a way, I like these men. They are men, they can get angry easily, and are all out for themselves. But they are interesting. Levene, the sense I got from him was that he was a little scatterbrained. But also likeable in a sense. “The Machine”! I don’t know if they are good people. Moss got Aaronow to steal the leads. But, I feel like in a sense, all these men are heroic in a sense. They are doing their best to get that Cadillac and to sell and sell and make their living with their own two hands. And I definitely care about what happens to them.
3. I definitely feel that these clips make the play as a whole easier to understand. It’s a lot more fluid for me and easier to grasp the situation. The constant breaks in conversation can often times for me be a little hard to follow. The way I heard the dialogue in my head however was slightly different. Maybe that is because I have Ben’s impression in my head. Moss’s speech really came out at me. It was more intense that I imagined.
ReplyDeleteMore than capitalism, salesmen represent consumerism. They are paid to force/trick people to buy products they don't believe in, and don't need. The products they sell don't last, and are simply cheap junk. There is no way a society can be built on people being paid to cover up the corners cut during manufacturing. Its not a real job, it seems that nobody has a true calling for deceit, even those who are successful are only so for a short time. Salesmen are hard workers, they're the modern miners and railroad layers, but they don't use their hands anymore. Workers in America seem to feel superior, and see manual labour as a less prestigious profession, forcing people who would rather be doing other things competing for the money of another person through whatever immoral means possible.
Heroic is the last thing I would call these characters. They are all pitted against each other in a relentless state of competition. Each conversation is in an attempt to get ahead. Nobody can trust anyone else. These characters are repulsive, they don't seem to have any humanity, unlike Miller's cast. It can be imagined that none of these men make enormous amounts of money, and their profession is a bit of a gamble, so they always appear on edge.
The text comes to life when it is played, and it is a lot easier to understand the flow of conversation Mamet meant. It is obvious this was meant to be played at a fast pace. Although, I had a completely different image of the characters, it was shattered by seeing the mannerisms of existing people imposed on fictitious characters. Especially the first clip, I thought Pacino wasn't as irresistibly charming as he should have been to sell this guys a house.
1. I think that salesmen are used by both Mamet and Miller because of the pressure on a salesman and the controversy that surrounds the idea of the salesman.Like many people have already said, If a salesman does not do his job well then there will be immediate repercussions. It is imperative for a salesman to be able to sell. Most people relate the salesman to the annoying phone call during dinner or that salesperson at the mall who don't understand the words, "just looking." People don't think about the side of the salesperson. Literature based on a salesperson shows that there is more to the salesperson than meets the eye. These books give the world an insight to this world where closing is everything and a few good leads can change a career.
ReplyDelete2. I have mixed feelings about the different characters in this play. I definitely know that I do not like Moss because he is manipulative and willing to do anything to get what he wants. Most of these men are like this, but Moss exudes these qualities in too large of a quantity. I am not sure what to think of Roma yet. He is definitely a great salesmen, but I don't think he is very trustworthy at all. He treats most of his co-workers with respect, but I still can't trust a guy who can put together a sales monologue that perfectly suits every individual that he runs into. I feel sorry for Levene and Aaronow, Levene is coming onto better times, possibly, but he is not the machine that he used to be. Aaronow is just pathetic. He needs to stay away from Moss if he knows what is good for him. All of the characters are complex and not one character is flat. They all have a lot of depth to them and I am interested in seeing what happens next.
3. When I read the book it is a lot harder to get the emotion and planning of the pauses and cut offs. In the clips it is a lot easier to see what is behind the words. The script is put onto the screen effortlessly. It is very powerful and there is a lot of depth to every line. Hearing it spoken a loud adds to the effect of Mamet's words. The actors in the movie were talented and portrayed the script well. The tension is visible in the office of these salesmen. It is easier to understand the details when watching the clip. Roma's monologue was interesting to see in the clip. Roma really gets into his sales pitch and the scene is done really well. The anger and sadness is put from print to film beautifully.
What makes a salesman such a resonant figure is that they do bust their asses to do their job “well,” but there is always a question of morality. This shows a side of American society in which all that is important is first impression and appearance. That is how you get ahead in their world/business. Their world affects the rest of society and that is where the question of morality comes in, because these salesman don’t care what their selling, to who, and how it affects them. All they want is to close a deal so they can eat for the day. No matter how “fucking solemn” it is, as Levene says after closing the Mountain View deal, the salesman is happy because he profited, and did his job well, which means that he can possibly be promoted or be on the board and see the top leads in their case. Salesmen can easily show how corrupt, dysfunctional, and immoral society/individuals can be, because we all fight against each other towards the common goal, success.
ReplyDeleteI like hearing their arguments; they are good talkers, because that is essentially what it takes to do their jobs well. However, they are all in it for themselves and the environment is always competitive. They can be funny, but honestly I cannot say I like the bunch. They are sometimes supportive of each other when they make a good deal, but otherwise they yell and “shit” on each other about everything, and they do not give anyone who is falling behind a helping hand.
I really like watching these clips, they tie the reading together nicely, clearing up some ambiguous moments. In the clips it was more evident how Roma acts like the ruler of the office. He is the only one sitting at a desk; he looks like the boss. He also is the only one who listens to Levene, or is nice to the old man. He even defends Levene a little, “Your pal closes, all that comes out of your mouth is bile, how fucked up you are…” (71). However, if Levene ever came to him for help Roma would not really sacrifice anything to help him. It’s all just a show.
I think Sohail makes a really great point in his response when he mentions the fact that salesmen dress professionally but they still have to work hard to earn a living. I think salesmen have been used in these two classic works ,and others, to show us how hard one must really try to achieve the American dream. Salesmen are individuals who basically are alone in their jobs if they sell and close deals the. They get money, if not they don't . Basically these authors are commenting on that American dream that is presented to us through pamphlets and advertisements as easy to obtain. the reality is that it is not easy and only those skilled and lucky will get there. American business is a competition and salesmen are a great way to portray that competition. Each character has an ambition to be on top and win that Cadillac and they will do the impossible to get there. They disrespect each other and someone even cheats and steals to get there. So basically in my opinion salesmen have to work hard daily in order to get what they dream.
ReplyDeleteSo far I really like Roma but I think it mostly because he is Al Pacino in the film and I should stop doing that. But these characters are all different but at the same time they are similar. They all are fighting to be on top and win the competition and be the best at what they do. Right now I really can't define a character as a hero, so far there are a couple of antagonists but I'm still not seeing one specific individual who is he hero.
I have really enjoyed the clips and find them amusing and really helpful. They help me understand the text 2 times better. They clarify the dialogue and sometimes what is going on. What stood out was Moss' farewell speech which like Tanja said was more aggressive then when I read it. Also Lignk was more drawn into Roma in the film. He looked so lost but he was laughing and smirking at Roma's speech and when I read it I imagined it completely different.
Salesmen are so representative of American society and so successful at being main characters partly because the job is so generic, but mostly because they are selling a dream, a vision: like glengarry highlands or Mountain View. And the salesmen themselves have a definite vision: to make money. The profession of salesman is particular in that the product is not made by the tradesman, but handed to him to sell to others for the highest bidder. In a more traditional occupation, this is done directly by the manufacturer. But salesman have to convince others that their dream is the best.
ReplyDeleteThese characters are, well, realistic. Mamet does not expect us to sympathize with them, but instead critique them, as their bosses do. I think that Roma is driven, while occasionally showing a thoughtful side, which he uses to his advantage while selling. He is a product of the situation he is in: sell or get fired. Aaronow, Levene, and Moss are more on the desperate side, they have begun to work in an unsavory manner for their own benefit.
I really enjoyed the clips, and they really help to bring the dialogue to life. Al Pacino's Roma in particular I think is spot on. The play is really meant to be performed, and that really comes across when watching it.
1.
ReplyDeleteOne thing that America is known for is the American Dream, specifically the idea that people can start with nothing and with hard work and determination you can get whatever you desire. I believe this is why these Iconic American books show a salesman as their main characters because salesman represent the capitalist society that allows you to achieve this dream. Salesman, from the beginning of America have helped to build the economy and build up everything that America stands for and they are the iconic and ideal American job. You are your own boss, you make a lot of money supposedly and, you live a glamorous lifestyle. That is the job that is sold to people looking for jobs. I also think that are salesmen because products, as we have talked about in class, are really important and that is how America thrives.
2.
I think that they are good men. I still am not sure if they are heroic, but most are good men. Arrenow is obviously guilt and feels guilty about what he did, which shows that he has a conscience but at the same time he still did it, he is definitely not heroic. I think the other guys try to be good guys but at the same time it can be very difficult to be a good man when you basically have to lie to make money. I do care about them I think, not as much as I cared about Willy. because I felt more emotions from him, but at the same time I think that I get a lot of feeling, mostly anger out of these salesmen.
3. I thought the clips were really helpful and that they helped me really understand what the emotion in the scenes were. They are also very helpful in clearing up what they are saying an how they are saying it.
1. Salesman demonstrates the American dream, the opportunity to pull oneself up through personal strength and perseverance. They are the standard in America, they can be found on every street in every city. They are the average. These are men that have to work every day every week to make their living.
ReplyDelete2. There are a few characters that jump out as particularly cruel, such as Roma and Moss. One of the more likeable characters, and a character I’m assuming is relatively new to the trade, is Aaronow. As we discussed in class, he is the only one that has discussed what is right for the customers. Shelly is slightly likeable, an underdog character, but also has the desperate determination seen in all of the other characters.
3. The clips were pretty true to how I read the dialogue, particularly Roma’s smooth-talking speech to Lingk. The acting during this scene was well done, with Lingk seemingly lost in Roma’s convoluted conversation. In these clips you really see the pauses and elipses that are included in the play, and how the lines of dialogue from each actor interact, cut-off, or interrupt the other.
1) I think that the focus on salesmen is due to the fact that they are not only fighting to achieve the dream, but also fighting to sell the dream. They are selling houses and in that process they must sell the idea of a better life. A life that can be achieved with money that comes from hard work. I think it is really interesting because the salesmen lie and manipulate their customers to make them believe they will achieve their dreams when they get this new house and I have yet to see the salesmen wonder if their own perception of the dream they are reaching for is just an illusion.
ReplyDelete2) I do not think they are bad people. I can't decide if I would enjoy knowing them personally and I'm not sure if I actually like them as salesmen or am simply amused and enjoy listening to them as they work. Honestly, I am really confused about how I feel about all of them. I don't know if I would call them heroes or if I think they are good people. Something that can be said though is that I do not yet think of them as bad people or villains. I am excited to see how my perceptions change throughout the play.
3) I could not make the videos load but I can say that the dialogue of the book has become much easier to read as we have read it aloud in class. I am now better able to do this in my head and because of this I am enjoying and understanding the book much more.