So says Melvin Lee when the dog he bet on, Mamba, loses its fight to Lucy. "Mamba, confused and in agony, rubbed his snout on the bloody carpet, trying to do something about its useless, dangling eye" (67). We never find out what happens to the animal, but there's a good chance he will end up like the dogs Mark Christiansen found back in the nineties "when the fight-dog craze was at its peak...Dogs, especially those who had lost fights, were disposable, like a shirt friends ridiculed because it had gone out of style. Mark found dogs shot in alleys, lying curbside with broken necks, thrown off roofs, and disposed of in Dumpsters with the trash" (68-69). Two years after Drama City was published, America got a glimpse into the world we see here when then Falcons (now Eagles) quarterback Michael Vick was convicted of running a dog fighting ring. He served 21 months in federal prison. Some thought he got off too easy; some thought he shouldn't have been punished at all. As I remember someone writing in the wake of his conviction in an email to the AJC, they were only dogs, what was the big deal? Sounds not that far from Lee's reaction.
So:
1. What is your response to the dog fight scene? Go ahead and quote in your response of a hundred words or so. Just don't use the quotes I've used above.
2. We talked today about Lorenzo and Rachel's (and Shirley and Irena's) efforts to not judge the people who do the sometimes questionable, sometimes awful, deeds that they have to deal with. Rachel can make the distinction between the man who had to have done bad in his younger days from the older man who is doing good. Lorenzo can distinguish between ignorance and "a crime of deliberate abuse" (16). Can you not judge what happens at the dog fight? Should we judge what happens? And if we should, what should/would we say about it? Write about a hundred words.
As I said in class today, Pelecanos amps up the moral quandaries facing his characters (and the reader as well) with every new chapter. I think he wants us to struggle with forgiveness, tolerance, and possibility of redemption along with Rachel and Lorenzo.
I apologize for this being late. If you happen to finish this by the end of break, that would be acceptable.
1. I was really angered by the dog fighting. Those men literally got “hard in his South Pole sweats when that tan dog had bit down on that other dog’s face” (67). These men have no remorse for what they put the dogs through. They take a sick pleasure in watching them kill each other, and like Mark says, disposes of them when they do not fulfill their jobs to the fullest. It really reminded me of the scene in Django Unchained, when the two slaves fought to the death, and the twisted men created by Tarantino’s mind cheered like it was a touchdown at a football game. It made my blood boil to see them use those dogs.
ReplyDelete2. I think you have to judge some, but not all the people at the dog fight. I feel like some of the men their, certainly not Melvin, are there to move up the ladder and win hearts with their superiors rather than watch the dogs rip each other's eyes out. Others, such as Melvin, are purely there for the sport and I feel no forgiveness towards. This buys in to the cynical stereotype that Pelecanos discusses, but I think the men that enjoy the fights were raised as a children with a cold fist, and watching that fight, and the struggle, gives them a sense of power or omnipotence over the animals. It is slavery, and exploitation.
1. This scene was absolutely horrendous. I felt myself cringing as I read the description of Mamba's injury. It is completely sick and disgusting. The onlookers "laughed and called out for murder and blood" (66). It is terrible that these men take joy in watching animals fight to the death. This scene reminded me of the cycle of cruelty we talked about in class today. There is a cycle of cruelty going on in this realm of DC. Today in class, we talked about the scene where a mother ordered her children to drown kittens. Of course these men are going to participate in dog fights, they were taught to be cruel at a very young age. I think a very big theme of this book so far is mothering. Pelecanos brings up mothering in very discrete ways in each chapter, whether it be the mother letting her child sit in front of the tv and eat chips, whether it is Shirley talking about how she neglected her child, or whether it is a mother ordering her children to drown kittens.
ReplyDelete2. It is pretty hard not to judge these guys at the dog fight, but as I said before, in the society they live in, they have been brought up to be cruel. They don't really know what it is to be good and kind due to how they were raised. However it really is incredibly hard for me not to judge them because this act is just so terrible. I feel more sorry for them than hate them. It is said that they can only get pleasure out of dogfights and that they need money so bad that they have to gamble on dogs fighting. It is just a sick and twisted world they live in. I'm judging their upbringing at this point rather than judging them. Everyone has a story and I am interested to figure out what their stories are.
1. As a massive animal lover, I was really uncomfortable reading the dog fighting scene. It was so vivid and really gruesome and it was a little too much for me. I think it’s a really disgusting and horrible way to spend a regular afternoon and I think it shows that these men (and some women) don’t have any respect for animals and just treat them as disposable objects. I hated reading the line about Mamba after Lucy had won the match and his “right eye had been ripped from its socket; it hung by nerves, just barely connected, halfway down his cheek” (67). It just really disgusted me and it made me really angry at these men who where just angry at losing money and wanted the dog that lost to suffer as a result. It just really made me uncomfortable an angry that people would think that’s an acceptable thing to submit dogs to and that its just for fun.
ReplyDelete2. Its hard not to judge because I think peoples actions says a lot about who they are so its hard for me to say that these men are good deep down when they are placing bets on dogs fighting each other. I agree with Cam that some of these men might be trying to get up in the ranks within their ‘organizations’ but I also think that those men could have picked another way to get up in the ranks. I think these men deserve to be judged for being cruel, heartless monsters that have no respect for anything or anyone. And while this attitude may be a result of their childhoods where they were asked to drown kittens and whatnot, I don’t think that makes it excusable or any better.
1. The dog fight was horrifying. The fighting itself was disgusting and incredibly cruel, but the thing that struck me about was it seemed to be a community event where “residents of all four quadrants of the city were welcome here regardless of gang or business affiliation,” where everyone, regardless of who their friends and enemies were, comes together to enjoy a night at the dog fights. The people were there to relax, drink beer, and maybe smoke a joint, and possibly end up winning money. The abuse to the dogs was obviously very scary, but what terrified me was how this was what the community came together and set aside their differences due to this horrific event.
ReplyDelete2. When dogs eyes are being ripped out and not much is being done about, it is impossible not to judge the situation. And I got the sense that this wasn’t an isolated occasion, and the idea of “redemption” is that an individual will learn from their mistakes and change their ways. Clearly the orchestrators of this event do not want redemption, so I think it’s okay to judge this situation because no one is even attempting to make a difference. However, in the previous chapters we saw the drowning of the cats incident, where at a young age these kids were all ready becoming de-synthesized to absolute cruelty and the dog fights were probably a product of this principle and the environment that accepts this principle. Because this kind of cruelty could be a product of the environment and maybe not necessarily the community’s fault, it’s possible that judgement should not be passed.
1. I found that scene very outrageous and was very disturbed by the way these man talked about the poor animals. I was impressed by Pelecano’s amazing detail even if I found it disgusting. I was a very vivid scene that truly infuriated me. Mamba’s injury was so vivid that I found myself feeling sick when reading, “Mamba’s right eye had been ripped from its socked; it hung by nerves, just barely connected, halfway down his cheek” (67). I found myself hating this men instantly and constantly fearing for the safety of the other animals. I found the organization of these incredible. The fact that so many people who consider themselves enemies at any other time can come together to watch such atrocities, “Residents of all four quadrants of the city were welcome here regardless of gang or business affiliation. This event was for profit and relaxation. The settling of beefs or the initiation of any kind of conflict was discouraged” (66). This scene made me believe that there are some people who do not deserve forgiveness for their acts.
ReplyDelete2. I found it near impossible not to judge everyone who was involved in this event. I think that these men do not deserve to be forgiven because the show no remorse for their actions and actually enjoy the act of killing these poor dogs. I understand that one should avoid judging others but I think that some actions are intolerable. I think that there is a line between what is more acceptable that what is not. I think that the difference between Lorenzo possibly killing someone and what these men are doing is that the person who Lorenzo probably killed was involved “in the game” when the poor dogs were innocents that were forced to kill each other. Both acts are, of course, intolerable but the abuse of the dogs made me judge these men more than Lorenzo. Also the fact that Lorenzo appears to have change when men like Lee have not change at all.
1. Obviously this was a terrible scene. There’s no way to rationalize what they’re doing. Hearing about the letter that the man wrote to the AJC is more terrifying that the scene to me. It’s a bit creepy hearing somebody make the argument that it’s ok because they’re only dogs. Honestly this scene didn’t really shock or surprise me, but imagining some guy shrugging his shoulders and saying, “what’s the big deal?” like some kid who was just caught taunting the family pet worries me. It’s one thing to read about the stereotypical bloodthirsty spectators who are clearly meant to be evil. It’s another to listen to a real person calmly ask why people think that it’s necessary to ruin everyone’s harmless fun. Something else that was interesting was the level of dedication and organization. “Many [dogs] were being scrubbed down with soap solutions, as was required, since dogs were sometimes sent into the ring with nausea-inducing chemicals on their coats. A card table had been set up to the side; laid out on it were first aid supplies: IV kits, sutures, alcohol preps, and sponges”(65). It’s a bit ironic that in this disgusting, morally bankrupt tradition, cheating is not condoned and proper medication is at hand. People have put thought into this. The bloodthirsty people shouting at the dogs are easy to figure out. The clinical and business like way in which some people approach it is what creeps me out.
ReplyDelete2. It’s hard not to dislike someone who participates in this kind of thing. However, I tend not to believe that anyone is just purely evil. Even Rico is still a person no matter how Pelecanos tries to describe him. Everyone has circumstances in their lives. Some are more messed up than others. No one is born a bad person. It’s not anyone’s fault how they are raised (and upbringing is probably the main reason for most adulthood crime). That being said, people should still be held accountable to some degree. Writing someone off completely because of bad things that they do is not ok, but it’s not ok to let everything slide because of a tough life either. I’m not sure exactly what people mean when they say “don’t judge.” You have opinions about everyone you meet whether you want to or not. There’s nothing wrong with making a judgment. The only thing to try and do is take as much information into account as possible. These men should be stopped, but just throwing them in jail does nothing. They need to be helped as well.
1. I had the same reactions as everyone else. I never truly understood the incredible cruelty of dog fighting. When I heard about Michael Vick's crimes, I did not realize what it entailed. That was ignorance on my part. What Jenny pointed out also struck me: this disgusting and horrifying event was the one thing that brings people together. There is a tolerant atmosphere to a certain extent because "...things happened when gazes lingered too long"(66). This emphasizes the immaturity and stupidity of these men. They have puffed up egos where they have to compensate constantly in order to prove their masculinity. In this culture, that means being violent and showing any sort of companionship or comradery is a sign of weakness. This is a big driver of this cycle of violence and intolerance.
ReplyDelete2. I agree with Aldo. This is unforgivable, and we are allowed to judge everyone involved (except for the little look out). The people Lorenzo probably hurt or killed were also knowingly involved in the drug trade; whether it be buyers or sellers. These dogs, on the other hand, are innocents, as Aldo said. They did nothing consciously to get involved in this hell. It's easy to judge these men for their joy in violence and death, yet I do understand that they've been raised and bred as such in their world of poverty and neglect. But still. Look at Lorenzo. Does it look like he wants a part of this?
1. The dog fighting scene was incredibly disturbing for me. The line that Cam mentioned is completely disgusting to me: "His dick had got hard in his South Pole sweats when that tan dog bit right down on that other dog's face"(67). The idea that someone could get that pleasure from watching violence is repulsive. But even the smaller details were upsetting, such as the "pit bulls with game-cropped ears" (65). It is so sad to me to think that these dogs have been conditioned and mutilated to fight their whole lives.
ReplyDelete2. Yes, I think you can and should judge the events in this scene. The concept is so fundamentally cruel in its nature and everybody there was participating. It would be one thing to know about dog fighting and not report it; I could understand how that could be considered cultural and part of the cycle we discussed in class. However, to actually go and witness the dog fights is repugnant and deserves judging. Lee grew up with Lorenzo, but Lorenzo is against dog fighting. The dog fighters are choosing to continue going to the fights, which in my opinion shows a total lack of empathy.
Going off of what Sohail said, when I say that the people deserve to be judged, I don't mean to say that they should be automatically condemned as evil people. I think that their actions involving dog fighting should be strongly considered when evaluating their characters, and it carries a heavy negative weight.
Delete1. The dog fight scene shows the utter disregard for life that these gangsters have, and their insatiable appetite for violence. They don’t have any respect for the lives of others, the lives of animals, or even their own lives. To have people “laugh and call out for blood” (66), and have this form of pure and uncensored violence as entertainment only further reinforces the fact that these gangsters only want to appease the basest and most primitive parts of the brain, and that they are mindless and only barely fit the definition of human beings. The scene was quick and disgusting, and with its vivid description of Mamba’s injury: “Mamba’s right eye had been torn from its socket; it hung by nerves, just barely connected, halfway down his cheek” (67), made me very uncomfortable just reading it. The scene gives us a glance of the people that Lorenzo once dealt with, and his humanity in comparison with these savages.
ReplyDelete2. In my answer to the first question I judged the dog fight and the people running it. It is hard not to judge them, even though this is only one instance of their life, but I think that anybody who would participate in such a gruesome event deserves some form of judgment. This situation isn’t like “the game” or something that is bad but unavoidable due to their society surroundings; the dog fight appeals to a certain disgusting crowd like Rico Miller whose own mother calls them “creep”. These people don’t fight dogs out of necessity to support themselves, like Lorenzo might have done, but rather for the sick excitement that it invokes in them.
1. I wanted to throw up reading this scene. The vivid description of the violence and the joy from the crowd is sickening. Throw in the fact that all of these people come to this “event…for profit and relaxation” (66). I’m an animal lover, as are many people at Paideia. While I’m typing this, my cat is trying to chase my fingers across the keyboard. I can’t even begin to think about putting two animals against each other in a to-the-death match. It just seems cruel and insane. People bring up Michael Vick’s scenario, and I’ll be frank, I think he should still be in prison. 21 months is too short of a time to serve for a crime as heinous as everyone has (so far in these comments) made dog-fighting out to be.
ReplyDelete2. Here, John, you point out that Lorenzo can judge between ignorance and a crime of abuse. Dogfights for me, aren’t ignorant acts, even if someone was raised watching dogfights. This is an act of abuse and it is an active act to abuse these creatures. I definitely judged the dog owners, the dog handlers, the referee, and the crowd in this scene. I however agree with what Zoe and Sohail said, in that while I am judging these people, I’m not condemning them to eternal damnation and claiming that they are purely evil. They were raised this way, perhaps, acclimatized to violence and used to it, yet it is their choice to continue the pattern onwards, and they make the choice to not stop it.
1) This scene is horrendous no matter how you look at it. It is disturbing on all levels and is a true act of evil. This is Pelecano's intention. We sympathize with the dogs because they are helpless animals thrown into a terrible situation. We are forced to feel the pain of Mamba as she is "confusedly" (67) searches for a place of healing. Pelecanos wants to show us that, yes, we shouldn't label people as good and bad, but that it is important to hold people to their actions. These are bad people. Their total disregard for life and lack of empathy is shocking. They have come to watch two dogs fight to the death for "relaxation" (66). Pelecanos wants us to truly feel the depth of their lack of human emotion.
ReplyDelete2)We should absolutely judge these people. It is ridiculous to me that people would reserve judgment from people doing such terrible things. I agree with the idea that we shouldn't label people as good or evil, but as Zoe said there are certain actions that are overwhelming and difficult to justify when judging someone. There is no sense of remorse or regret as these men witness such overwhelming suffering. They seem to lack elements of character that make us humen. Judgment should be avoided, but is necessary in situations such as this.
1. This was by far the most shocking scene of the book so far. I didn't expect him to describe the fight itself with such graphic detail. The point of the scene seemed somewhat lost on me. For me the only thing that was accomplished by the scene was that I got a better general understanding of Marvin and Rico. Otherwise all I gained was an increase to my dislike of the concept of dogfighting as a whole. When I say we gained an understanding of Rico and Marvin I am referring to the way we were introduced to their natures. At one point during the dog fight Pelecanos writes, "Miller, for his part, had enjoyed the fight. His dick had got hard in his South Pole sweats when that tan dog had bit down right on that other dogs face." This description of Rico Miller lends itself to my overall reaction to the scene, my reaction being, what the hell is this?
ReplyDelete2. No I can not prevent myself from judging those who enjoy pitting to living creatures together in a battle. On a certain level I could probably keep myself from judging certain aspects of the characters in this book, but the sheer bloodlust that would lead someone to dogfighting is a little disconcerting. So yes, we should judge and condemn those who take part in dogfighting, but my opinion isn't restricted to dogfighting but to many aspects of the world of Drama City. I do think we should judge the drug dealers, enforcers, dog fighters, and even some portion of the addicts. While those who have recovered from addiction can be spared this condemnation in my opinion, a practicing addict who could potentially be trying to find a way to break his or her addiction but isn't deserves some judgement. Overall my opinion is relatively subjective, but I do think that judgement is necessary and appropriate at times in this book.
1. The dogfight appalled me. It was horrific to the core and I was disgusted by the treatment of these dogs. Lee didn't care that Mamba's eye was coming out of its socket. It shows a lack of decency and moral character that is disgraceful. The boy who acted as a look out wanted to fit in so badly that he was willing to put the lively hood of living creatures at stake. Still Lorenzo doesn't judge, "That's what he would have done at this boy's age. Lorenzo didn't blame him. They all had to play their roles. Besides, the object was to break up the fights and, for now at least, spare those animals some misery. The kid, no matter his intent, was going to get it done" (73). Lorenzo relates to this culture a lot and can understand the troubles that this boy faces. Lorenzo is torn, between not judging and understanding the cruelty that is displayed with these heinous dogfights. The dogfights are only for pleasure. No one cares about the dogs themselves. All Lucy and Mamba want to do is please their owners. They are in some ways like these gang members who are forever trying to be accepted by leaders like Nigel and Deacon. The book goes into a lot of detail about these fights and with good reason. Its hard to fully understand the horrors of the fights without knowing the details. It is terrible and heart breaking to read, but it tells an important story.
ReplyDelete2. It is difficult to not pass judgment on the dogfights. The flagrant cruelty is not something that can be easily looked pass. To a certain extent, these men should be judged for there actions, but I think they could have some redemption if they actually wanted it. These men don't want redemption and they don't care. They can't see outside of their little microcosm into the rest of the world. At the end of the day , which gang is declared the best in their neighborhood in Chicago will not affect the rest of the world at all. They are trying to hide the fact that at the height of the lives of these men, they will be sitting in cars bought by drug money smoking a joint. For example, Lee is probably around 30 and he wears baggy jeans and a t-shirt. I could not personally redeem them, but society could. When someone kills another person's son, they are not likely to forgive. If a man killed someone who had no relation to another person, they might be more likely to forgive him. This cycle is unbroken and even people like Lorenzo are not willing to break it.
1.
ReplyDeleteThe dog fight scene really demonstrated the criminal community that lives in the surrounding area, and was also quite disturbing. We were introduced to the large players of the criminal community, and got to know some of the less-likable characters better. Apart from the crude and violent scene of the dog fight, the most disturbing event was Rico's reaction to the scene before him, "His dick had got hard in his South Pole sweats when that tan dog had bit down right on that other dogs face." Also, it demonstrated Lopez's capacity for forgiveness, as he does not become angry or agressive towards the kid that is keeping watch, but instead sees him much as he saw the dog that killed his kitten years earlier.
2.
To attempt not to pass judgement on such a callous and cruel act as dog fighting. These men have grown up around these events, and so have been taught that such callous treatment of animals is nothing to be squeamish about. The culture has become so ingrained in them that they cannot step back and see it for what it really is, as Lee has been given the opportunity to do. As people far removed from this situation, I do not believe we can judge as these men know nothing else other than illegal activities such as these.
1. I think that most of the class has already used all of the adjectives I would think of to describe this scene, and, short of pulling out the thesaurus, I can safely say that Pelecanos does a wonderful job of describing the raw anger that goes into dog fighting and the careless attitudes of the men (and women, apparently) attending such events. Everyone is "drinking, smoking weed, and discussing past and upcoming matches" (65). This might as well be a lawn party, minus the weed perhaps, or a picnic in the woods, if it weren't for the fact that dogs are having their eyes, quite literally, torn out of their sockets by other dogs. Apparently that lends a nice dash of blood sport to the sociable atmosphere already present. And the heartless aspect of Rico's character is again driven home to us during this entire scene.
ReplyDelete2. Such disregard for life is almost begging to be judged, and the people who enjoy watching these fights, indeed, believe that the dogs participating in them deserve their injuries, are certainly cruel by any means. If they don't care for the dogs, who's to say they don't take the same attitude towards humans? This is the part of judging that is useful to people like Rachel- those who will reform themselves, and those who won't. It would be extremely difficult to consider raising these dogs to fight, betting on their fights, and then criticizing their performances as a crime of ignorance. Certainly the culture that pervades the society that these people live in has a hand in producing these attitudes, but there is something more fundamental about using animals in such a manner. Dealing drugs to a grown man who is capable of making his own decisions is a different thing in many respects.
Well, obviously I will say like every other member of the class that the dog fighting scene was disgusting and extremely disturbing. But for me, the real disturbance did not come from the actual fights, while very graphic and violent, but from the nonchalance of it all. Everything about this procedure and this event is sickening and clearly stands out as morally wrong, and yet everyone treats it as though it's not a big deal, inevitable, almost okay in a sick and twisted way. "Syringes, to be used for injectable antibiotics brought along by the handlers, were available as a courtesy as well. Also, complimentary were vitamins and supplements." (65). And then it also goes on to talk about how this is solely an event for profit and relaxation. It becomes a sporting event for the spectators, and while the facts of dog fighting have been known for years, this is the first time many of us have been subject to an actual scene of a dogfight, or at least I hope that is the case. So obviously it caught me off guard and is catching the rest of the class of guard, as many events in this book have and probably will, as we are not subject to these atrocities and crime scenes on a daily basis.
ReplyDeleteI think there's a big difference between judging people based on what has happened in the past and what is happening in the now, as well as a big difference between judging ignorance and deliberate acts of violence. Both Lorenzo and Rachel have held back their judgement thus far in situations dealing with the past and with ignorance, but this dog fight deals with the present time and is obviously a deliberate act unlike some of the other animal abuse we've seen thus far, so I say that judgement is completely necessary and understandable. It becomes not only about the physical actions that one sees and the corruptness of those actions, but also about the corruptness of the mind carrying out those actions. It's the difference, if I may make an analogy here, between a child who ignorantly steals a toy, as they see no harm their actions, and an adult who steals the same toy, knowing very well their intentions and the consequences. And yet still, I think Lorenzo does his best not to judge in this situation, or to outwardly judge in this situation. He is extremely polite to Lee, despite the thoughts that he has when they are talking. He goes over to calm down Loomis and sympathizes with him, treats him like an equal human being. So while I may think that it's necessary to judge in this situation, Lorenzo does not seem to have the same mindset.
1. This whole scene is very disturbing and cruel to me. It disgusts me that these men cheer and watch these dogs fight and rip the other's eye out of the socket. "They laughed and called out for murder and blood." It is pure animal cruelty. "Both wanted to please their owners and defeat their opponents". It's just a game to these owners. They take this game very seriously as they put money on the dogs, but they don't take their dogs seriously at all. They don't care about the risk and danger their putting their dogs in. The owners just want to train them and win. It's all about their manhood and pride.
ReplyDelete2. You can absolutely judge these people. You can't compare this scene to the woman and her son eating potato chips. That scene had no reflection on her morality. This dog fighting scene shows what these people think to be okay to do. They believe it's fine and casual to bet on these dogs and watch them fight till half of their face is eaten off. These actions reflect their character. A young boy eating junk food doesn't say a whole lot about his mother's character. I agree with Sam. You can't really judge someone based off what they've done in the past. I think to a certain extent they can redeem themselves. But you can definitely judge someone off their current and present actions especially with a scene as specific and explicit as this dog fighting scene.
1. I thought that the dog fight scene was just terrible. Yes, I had heard of dog fights, and I knew there was some risk to the dog, but that was just brutal. Lee and Miller both show no remorse for Mamba, who had just lost one of his eyes practically. And then, they keep holding these dog fights and keep betting and watching, having a good time while the dogs have to keep suffering. What really struck me was when the “eye was dangling, hanging by just a nerve”. I thought that that was just awful, and felt so bad for the dog, nonexistent as it is. But I am sure that that has actually happened to some dog somewhere before, and that some dog has been killed in these fights.
ReplyDelete2. I don’t know. As you said, Lorenzo can distinguish between crimes and deliberate abuse and ignorance. But in this case, it is a mix of both. These men are purposefully pitting their dogs against each other, perhaps because of ignorance of the morality. But, I think that we definitely can judge these people. We see other people witnessing the same scenes (Mark) feel for the dogs and be changed by all the dogfights. On the other hand, these men purposefully put these dogs in harm’s way, going out of their way to do it, and that is all just to have fun and gather. It is a terrible thing that should be stopped, and also reflects the morality of the people holding and going to this event.
1)I was absolutely horrified, disgusted and extremely saddened by this scene. In general I’m very sensitive to animals and their pain, even roadkill. I hate how the whole thing was premeditated and planned enthusiastically and it’s all against the dogs’ wills. I knew that dog fighting existed as well as rooster fights and all because of the stories my father has told me but I never imagined how fanatic people could become about this. The way that people really bet, cheered, got angry, sold beer and played music. It’s just sick the human kind has gotten so far to see pain as entertainment. What stood out the most to me and what disgusted me a lot was the way Miller enjoyed this fight, “His dick had got hard in his South Pole sweats when that tan dog had bit right down on that other dog’s face”(67). I have no idea how this could be possible, but it was sick. And like many have said, of course I got angry and more because I can’t do anything about it.
ReplyDelete2)At the same time that I think we shouldn’t judge people specifically to discriminate, I think it’s inevitable and of course we will and can judge these awful events. I think it’s awful and very dramatic, I don’t see why we shouldn’t. If someone or something’s life is at stake, why not? Judging is a form of predicting or expecting the worst and therefore provide a defense mechanism for how to deal with the oncoming tribulations. I think if one doesn’t judge these people, we are missing an important part of self-protection.
Theres a fine line between abusive and repulsive but this dogfighiting scene crosses all of them. And any other line you could possibly put on people like this. I could say a lot more about how awful etc. but really the strange thing is the lack of responsibility these people have. They feel no compassion towards other living creatures and I'm sure that if if it werent illegal most of these folks would take some sick pleasure from watching gladiator fights. It must be some primal emotion that they are satisfying when they"laughed and called for murder and blood".
ReplyDeleteTheres no way to refrain from judging the people at the dogfight. Especially with the awareness i have due to my upbringing. I instantly think of all of the things they did "wrong" and what they should and shouldn't be doing. But as much as a judge I cant really say much about their life style. I dont know what they did to get there, I dont know their stories, their childhood. For all i know I could end up being best friends with any of them. Maybe people do this for fun as the book presents, or maybe its just people who dont know anything else. Maybe its the thrill of watching something able to stir up emotions that otherwise would be stifled by the wannabepurecivility of the world around them.
The dog fighting scene was pretty brutal to me. I love watching MMA, boxing, wrestling, etc but dog fighting has always felt morally wrong to me. The line that really struck me was the descriptions of the dogs. "Both wanted to please their owners and defeat their opponent. Only one could emerge victorious." This really highlights why I think dog fights are wrong, the dogs don't really have any choice in the matter, and all a dog really wants to do is make its owner happy. However, we do have to take these people's backgrounds into consideration before demonizing them for this. If they were raised in a place where this was the norm, then of course they would not have the same qualms about it. I guess you have to ask yourself if its wrong to judge someone based on their culture. I think that we have to step back and ask ourselves what really makes our beliefs "right" and their's "wrong," besides the fact that we grew up with ours. All that being said, I still thought that the scene was pretty disturbing.
ReplyDelete1) I definitely hated the dog fight scene. It made me really angry just because the dogs seemed so helpless. Even though I knew it was coming, it was much more gruesome than I thought it would be. I feel that the fact that these people don't see it as wrong definitely shows the difference between their culture and ours. The fact that it was all so normal to them was the most disturbing part, how thy we're jus relaxing by the cages, buying "beer, malt liquor, and wine concoctions"(65) much like people do at a sporting event.
ReplyDelete2) I find this question really hard to answer. I feel that it's definitely different between Rachel and Lorenzo since Lorenzo's past is behind him, but I think comparing the two is hard to handle because if you think about it a lot they are much the same. They say they can not judge people because they have all done bad things, but it is definitely easier to point fingers and dole out blame when a person is actively doing bad than when a person has done bad in the past and is now working to better himself.
1) I definitely hated the dog fight scene. It made me really angry just because the dogs seemed so helpless. Even though I knew it was coming, it was much more gruesome than I thought it would be. I feel that the fact that these people don't see it as wrong definitely shows the difference between their culture and ours. The fact that it was all so normal to them was the most disturbing part, how thy we're jus relaxing by the cages, buying "beer, malt liquor, and wine concoctions"(65) much like people do at a sporting event.
ReplyDelete2) I find this question really hard to answer. I feel that it's definitely different between Rachel and Lorenzo since Lorenzo's past is behind him, but I think comparing the two is hard to handle because if you think about it a lot they are much the same. They say they can not judge people because they have all done bad things, but it is definitely easier to point fingers and dole out blame when a person is actively doing bad than when a person has done bad in the past and is now working to better himself.
First of all I wanna agree with others when they comment on the person who e-mailed the AJC. It is sad that someone said a dumb comment like that, but it’s a reality that exists. Like everyone has said the scene was disturbing but especially because of the detailed description(s) which just pictured it all in my head. “Residents of all four quadrants of the city were welcome here regardless of gang or business affiliation.” The fact that these people actually enjoy these types of events and allow it to happen despite how wrong it may be is also shocking. More shocking was the line They laughed and called for murder and blood.” These events are held to add profit to these already “wealthy bad people”. I was glad someone was not afraid to report it to the Humane Society. Like I said in class most of these people don’t have a choice or they are to scared to stand up or say something. They want to fit into the culture and avoid being called names or being bullied.
ReplyDeleteIt is hard not to judge these people because of the thigs they do and the horrible scene that just happened. But in my opinion we have to realize and understand the conditions they live in. In the past chapters kids were ordered to drown cats by their mom because they had no other choice. I think we are allowed to judge the immorality of the dog fighting but there isn’t much opportunity in these neighborhoods. “The line some handlers became sickened at the injuries and death” shows that these people can change and there is room for redemption.
Hey John I know this is really late but here I go:
ReplyDelete1. I thought the dog fighting scene was really gruesome and awful, but at the same time I thought it was really funny how all of these people gathered together just to do something illegal. Like we talked about in class, they could have gone to a boxing match or a MMA fight and bet on that match, but they deliberately decided to host dogfights. The most awful part of the chapter was when the fight is over and the losing dog is rubbing his face on the ground with his eyeball hanging out. That part just makes me shudder.
2. I don't think we should judge them for the dogfights. They were raised in a culture that trained them to like blood and violence the same way the dogs were raised to fight each other. The same way that the two children in chapter 9 are playing Grand Theft Auto. It's really sad that this is the result of their childhood, but I don't think we can blame them. What we can blame them for however, is not making the effort to change. As we can see with Lorenzo, change is very possible, one just needs to actually want and strive towards it.
1. The dog fighting scene was one of the more morbid and harrowing scenes in the book. I think that Pelecanos is really trying to convey how screwed up and awful the lives of the gang members are. They do terrible things. Some of them have it innate in their ego (like Miller), some just follow along because it's expected of them, but I think that most of the people have become numb to the world that they have come to live in.
ReplyDelete2. I think that in every situation, people have a choice. They have a choice between doing what is bad and what is good, or at the very least to do what they think is best. Even with a gun to your head and someone telling you to do something that you know is wrong, you'd still have the power to make your own choice. Almost all of the people in the city have pressure on them to do bad things (join a gang, commit violent crimes, abuse dogs, etc), but very few people have the will to resist these pressures and do what is right. I don't think anyone in this city is completely exempt from judgment. They all have the ability to make good decisions.
1. This was an extremely difficult scene to read not only because of its gruesomeness which was hard to overcome but also the carelessness and unfeelingness that i felt most of the people attending this disgusting event had. I could not even read this section without stopping a few times to take a deep breath and I could not let alone think about being at one of these things. One of the quotes that stood out to me though was the one that talked about the people who came to these events, "residents of all four quadrants of the city were welcome here regardless of gang or business affiliation,” this quote I think showed how important these things are to the people in the community which disturbs me and intrigues me. It disturbs me to think that these people think this is normal and have no problems with it, but it intrigues me because I think this shows the society in which they are brought up in as well. I think it is also ironic that the only place everyone can nonviolently congregate and talk as civil human being no matter what group gang or whatever you are is at a violent fight where dogs try and kill eachother.
ReplyDelete2. It is very hard not to judge these people who are supporting something that I cannot even begin to understand, however at the same time while I do not give them a pass on their actions if I try hard enough I can begin to understand their reasons. This is what they have grown up knowing. We see that from a small age, with the boy told to watch for the police, that these children are growing up around this violence. So the fact that they continue it into adulthood is not surprising. The hardest thing for me is that they know its wrong, they know the police will come and arrest them, and they still do it. I try very hard not to judge but it would take all of my willpower not to kick one of these guys very hard if I ever came across one.
I was disgusted. Just taking about this kind of thing makes me sick. I wonder why people enjoy watching it…is it because they have some unresolved or unexpressed anger that they need to release and watching two other beings go at each other’s necks does that for them? I do not understand it. However as we said in class, maybe part of why we don’t understand this is because of the way we have been raised. I still think it’s outrageous and inexcusable, but to acknowledge the possibility that this is based on ignorance can maybe make the situation a tiny bit easier to understand…although not much. “Gamblers and spectators stood around drinking, smoking weed, and discussing past and upcoming matches….[A] man sold beer, malt liquor, and wine concoctions from out of a cooler. A boom box played bomb-squad-style hip-hop.” What makes it all more disturbing is that this sounds like the description of a neighborhood picnic. However, considering the circumstances it only reflects the violent culture. I can't help but judge this situation negatively, because I think just as fights between slaves a beasts are not held in the Coliseum any longer, dog fights like these should not be something people take pleasure in watching.
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