The poem Lisa is reciting is one by Dorothy Parker:
Razors pain you. Rivers are damp.
Acid stains you. Drugs never cramp.
Guns aren't lawful. Nooses give.
Gas smells awful. You might as well live.
Lisa, of course, has a huge desire to live—to live without the constrictions of society. Susanna is drawn to this bigger-than-life young woman; but at the same time, she's debating one of the main questions of the film: how to live in this world?
The title of the film is never really addressed in it: it comes from a famous painting by the Dutch painter Vermeer called "Girl Interrupted at Her Music". This is it. There is a scene in the screenplay where Lisa and Susanna are killing time at a museum after they have escaped Claymoor. Susanna is drawn to the painting and overhears a group of high school students and their teacher talking about the painting.
ART TEACHER. What do you think, Maureen?
MAUREEN. I think her teacher's pissed. He's trying to get her attention, but she's looking out. As if—I don't know—
ART TEACHER. What?
MAUREEN. ...as if she's trying to get out of the painting.
Hmmm...gee, I wonder who else is trying to get out of the painting?
Some questions:
1. A scene or moment from Friday's viewing that stayed with you? And why?
2. Susanna is diagnosed with "borderline personality disorder." "'Social contrariness and a general pessimistic attitude are often observed,'" Susanna says in the movie. "That's me, all right." To which Lisa says, "That's everybody." Now: the film has been criticized, and for good reason, for its depiction and discussion of mental illness. That said—given what we see, and given that we are not mental health experts, does Susanna strike you as mentally ill? Valerie tells her, "You are a lazy, self-indulgent, little girl, who is making herself crazy." So what do you think?
3. Finally: what has jumped out at you about Esther Greenwood, the protagonist of The Bell Jar? A scene or moment that struck you? And do you see any of Susanna in her?
We'll finish the movie tomorrow and start discussing it.
1. I was surprised when Lisa slapped Georgina when they were sneaking about and no one stood up for her. Lisa has complete control over everyone in the ward, including some of the nurses. When Georgina got slapped she sucked it up, just like everyone else did who saw. This scene really confused me because I thought it would play a larger part in the movie later. It probably will; Lisa's need for control and power over the other girls may clash with Susanna in some way.
ReplyDelete2. I think Susanna was in denial that she had any problem whatsoever when she was dealing with her suicide attempt. She was sent to the mental hospital believing with every fiber of her being that it would make things worse, and that she had to leave to stay sane. The people Susanna interact with put her in the sane category when compared, and I think they are rubbing off on her with each passing day. She wants to be crazy like Lisa, loving life and breaking the rules. Susanna has come to realize that she is not crazy though, and that scares her.
3. I can already tell the Esther is very bright and observant, with a certain permanent apathy for everything around her. She feels detached from the relationships she has with her friends, and I am interested to see what turn the book will take for the development of her character. I was struck by the moment she shunned Frankie at the bar, how she turned her back on him to tell him to leave. The book talks of how many girls go on to be secretaries, but it seems that Esther is a powerful character that has control, and she utilizes that.
A scene that really stayed with me from Friday's viewing was the scene when Susanna's boyfriend shows up at Claymore unexpectedly after being drafted. It was not the first part of the scene that stuck with me but the second part, when they go outside and he urges her to run away to Canada with him. The reason this resonated with me so much was because this is really Susanna's first blatant opportunity to get out, to escape not only Claymore, a place she's expressed she hates to no end, but her entire life thus far that she has been a part of. As John has brought up, this main question of the movie that is how does one live in this world, Susanna has really struggled with this question of how does one live, and through her attempted suicide and her attitude throughout the film it seems as though she has given up in answering that question altogether. And then there is this scene, when she is given the opportunity to finally give up on finding the answer on how to live and to simply run away, and she turns it down. One could obviously interpret this scene differently and say that she just does not love her boyfriend enough to take that big of a step or something along those lines, but I interpret it as her not giving up. Despite her situation, despite her attitude up until this point, this scene shows a sliver of fight in Susanna to find the correct way to live and to find the answers to the many questions that she has.
ReplyDeleteI think that there is a little of both. In many ways I agree with Valerie, despite how I answered the last question. Susanna does not strike me as mentally ill, just as someone who is indeed very self-centered and focused on her own life and doing only what she would like to do. As I talked about in the last question, she struggles with this question of how does one live their life, but she doesn't really seem to want to find the answer. It's her drive to find the answer that is the problem, not that she is not mentally capable of doing so. She is, in many ways, like a lot of teens and young adults today, she has many of the same problems, problems that I'm sure many of us in this class even have struggled with on some level. And we're not all in mental hospitals, at least not yet, and I don't think that's where the majority of us belong. Having said that, she does show glimpses of being mentally ill and mentally disabled. While she doesn't really seem to have a care other than herself, she does wash down a bottle of advil with a bottle of vodka in an attempt to kill herself. I think one has to be not right in the head on some level to do this, no matter what their intentions by doing this may be. And then there are the few scenes at the beginning of the film where it's shot almost as if one is traveling through her head, and it keeps going back and forth from present to past and back to present. Of course I'm no expert, but that does not seem like a normal brain pattern, and obviously there is some sort of problem being shown through this. So I think there are many factors that come into play in my conclusion that both sides of the argument are true of Susanna to some extent, and I think that's what the film wants us to do. I think it's certainly not an easy question, and a question that the film wants us to think about, to grapple with, and to really struggle with.
What has jumped out at me about Ether Greenwood is that for the most part, she seems very selfish thus far. Everything is what she likes, what she doesn't like, how this makes her feel, how that makes her feel, and while I think it's important to the book in that it provides more than just what is happening, I don't really like her that much as a character. An example of this and a scene that struck me was when she ditches Doreen while at Lenny's house, and then leaves her on the floor outside of her hotel room when she returns in terrible shape. Obviously Doreen is in need of some serious help, and yet Esther is more focused on how she doesn't want to associate herself with Doreen and her hot bath and getting a good night's sleep to forget what had happened the night before. I think that she is very similar to Susanna, and as I have seen a slight change thus far in Susanna I expect to see a similar change in Esther. After all it has only been the first few chapters.
ReplyDelete1. The scene that stuck with me the most was the one in the ice cream shop. It was funny watching everyone freak out the professor’s wife. At this point, everyone is clearly on Susanna’s side. Even Daisy slaps the ice cream out of the daughter’s hand with a “Get that out of my face, asshole.” I’m paraphrasing. Whether or not Susanna is actually mentally ill, she clearly is more comfortable around those with mental illnesses than those in the real world.
ReplyDelete2. I definitely think something is wrong. Taking a full bottle of aspirin is certainly not healthy behavior. But I also don’t think it’s really fair to classify her as just mentally ill and throw her in an institution. She’s a young person with absent, selfish parents. Her condition probably results from a combination of her environment, her age, and something biological. She may just be an introverted, depressed person who’s fed up with everyone around her. That warrants professional help, but she isn’t crazy. As for lazy and self indulgent, maybe the aspirin was just a cry for attention as are her trouble making exploits with Lisa.
3. I find Esther very similar to Susanna. She’s very observant, yet not very good at dealing with the world around her. I wonder just how often she feels the need to escape everyone and everything and cleanse herself in the bath. I’m not judging people who clean themselves, but her bathes are clearly something more than that. Susanna, I believe, has said she just doesn’t want to turn out like her parents. They’re rich, high class, proper people. They live for parties and socializing with the other rich people. Esther looks at the rich privileged girls living their lives by shopping all the time, and she comments that they look miserable. I think she’s scared about her future and the world just as Susanna is. The only difference is that Susanna is on her way to recovery while Esther’s condition (if the front flap is telling the truth) is on the decline.
1. A moment that's stuck with me was when Susanna and Lisa are escaping and Lisa says, "Come on, Jaime!" Susanna's shocked into stopping and mumbling, "I'm Susanna." It's almost like she has to remind herself who she is and what she's doing. Lisa has extreme influence on her, and it's making it even harder for her to figure out who she really wants to be and what she can do in the world. Even with the realization that she's playing Lisa's game, she goes on with her anyway. It's easier for Susanna to follow Lisa and feel like she's breaking the mold society wants to fit her into.
ReplyDelete2. I agree with Valerie completely. Susanna isn't seeing blue people, she isn't violent towards others. We're forced to catagorize these characters into finite catagories that don't encompass the complexity of the human psychy, no matter how much we try to understand what's going on with a person's mind. The movie forces us to question the validity of Susanna's diagnosis and it's so easy since the psychiatrist is a horny asshole and falls asleep while Susanna's pouring her heart out. It seems completely possible for Susanna to be completely sance and completely stuck in this hospital.
3. I see many similarities between Susanna and Esther. They're so alone and sad that they can only focus on themselves in order to get through the day. They have a larger than life friend that they use to get through life. I agree with same, I think Esther is very selfish, but I think that it's become so she can't help it. It's unhealthy for her to get stuck in her own thoughts and isolate herself. I can see things going downhill for her if she keeps feeling "like a hole in the ground."
1. The scene that stuck with me the most was when Susanna yelled at Valerie in the tub. It seemed to me that Susanna was trying to be crazy so that she could be more like Lisa, which is what Valerie was saying. Susanna was incredibly harsh and rude to Valerie, for no reason. The scene was very unexpected and confusing to me. I couldn't decide in this scene whether Valerie was right or whether Susanna is actually going crazy.
ReplyDelete2. I think Susanna has some problems, but I do not think she is mentally ill. I agree with Valerie's diagnosis of her. I think Susanna is acting out. The mental hospital is making her worse because she thinks she has a serious problem and that she can blame her action on that problem. Susanna seems to be acting crazier and crazier as the movie progresses. It is hard to tell whether she is getting worse or it is entirely because she is institutionalized (and because of Lisa). I think Lisa has an overwhelming effect on Susanna. In my opinion, Susanna would be acting very differently if she wasn't in the hospital, regardless of whether she is ill or not.
3. Esther's seems trapped to me. I think she is incredibly smart but she isn't quite sure what to do with her wit. She also seems to have a very spontaneous personality, and I think this is caused by her boredom and lack of stimulation. The end of the first chapter really hooked me into the book. Esther seemed fairly level headed until she got out of the car to go be with the men. Esther is smart, but clearly a little reckless as well. Her attachment to Doreen is reminiscent of Susanna's attachment to Lisa.
1. The moment that jumped out at me was when they were all reading the doctor's diagnosis and notes on each of the girls. They all want to know how their doctor views them and most of the girls disagree with the doctors notes or they don't want to agree with the doctor. It just shows how crazy the the outside perspective or society views them, because obviously the girls view the other girls much more differently than how the nurses and society views the girls. The other girls have this understanding of each other even though they have different disorders and illnesses. But they are all confined by the doctors, the nurses, their families, and society.
ReplyDelete2. I'm really stumped by this question. I think Susanna to a certain extent is "crazy". She did attempt suicide, but being socially awkward or quiet or being pessimistic doesn't necessarily mean she's mentally ill. I think Susanna just needs some stability and support in her life, which neither her boyfriend or her parents or the nurses are giving her. I think Susanna likes the girls and Lisa, because they don't view her or treat her as crazy, because I think Susanna doesn't even know or believe she is mentally ill.
3. I think Esther and Susanna are alike. They feel very isolated and confined by society. They both feel out of place. Susanna felt very out of place before she was placed in the institute. Esther feels out of place in this fashion industry in New York. I also think they're both insecure and trying to find themselves and their identity.
1. One moment that stuck out to me from the film was the scene when Susanna was playing the guitar and singing for Polly because it was a very sweet moment in a very negative environment. A lot of characters in the film seem to only care about themselves and their actions are for the benefit of themselves, like Daisy who would do anything for laxatives and Lisa who will anything to cause trouble. But here, we saw Susanna doing something for somebody else, and by comforting Polly with music, she took a real risk and ended up getting in a huge amount of trouble. Susanna is often very negative, but her we saw that there is a positive and kind side to her.
ReplyDelete2. Susanna doesn’t really strike me as mentally ill. She seems like someone who is very confused about how to act and how to feel and how to react to certain situations. I think she is struggling with a problem, but I don’t necessarily think that problem is a mental illness. I think there’s a difference between what she is going through and what Polly, who burned herself, and Georgia, a pathological liar, and Janet, an anorexic, are going through. And when you have them all together, I see a big distinction between those girls and Susanna.
3.The two characters are very alike in that they both feel like they are not in control of their lives. Esther says that she “wasn’t steering anything, not even [herself],” and I think that quote really applies to both of them. But I think there is a difference between the two young women and that difference is that Esther seems to really know why she is feeling lost whereas Susanna seems to have no clue. Esther talks about she should be having the time of her life because she is living the dream of so many young girls, but she just doesn’t feel satisfied by it. She knows what is wrong with her current life, while Susanna does not know what is causing her so much pain. There both lost and unhappy with their lives, but Esther knows why she is unhappy, and that makes them two different characters.
I really enjoyed the scene where all the girls were taken out for ice cream. I thought it showed perfectly the separation of reality and illusion. Between society and fantasy. For the first time I saw these women as the normal. When they were crossing the road they were happy. When Lisa took control of the worker serving the ice cream she seemed like a confident young woman out on the town. These girls are put down by society in a way that is unnecessary. They still have feelings and need love and affection like all human beings. People look at them as though they are lower than filth when in reality they could be of just the same intelligence. I find the scene in the ice cream shop to show this idea perfectly.
ReplyDelete2. I really don't think she is. She seems like a confused little girl trying to fit into a world she doesn't understand. We have already discussed that Susanna seems to have had a rough past with her family. I now see that this has created a young woman without a place in the world. The environment of a loving family was never there for Susanna. She has had to grow and learn things on her own. I agree totally with Valerie in that Susanna is driving herself crazy. Her mind is trying to process everything at once, to fit in with society, but slowly realizing that these people that society are casting out are not as bad as everyone sees them to be. Susanna is not mentally ill she is just struggling with all this knowledge that must be processed without anyone to lean on.
3. The scene in which she was the third wheel, but quickly left and decided to walk the entire way home. Once she was there the description she gave about the feelings and emotions that came from the bath she took very much reminded me of Susanna. Esther seems more confident in herself than Susanna does but they both have a clear sense of being out of place in the world. Both stories are unfolding allowing these characters to look into themselves and find who they truly are and why. I cannot wait to finish both and see who Susanna and Esther will become.
1. I’ve always loved the scene where Lisa and Susanna sing to Polly. I think it really shows the bond that these women create with each other and how they take care of each other in their times of need. Polly often times gets brushed off to the side and no one really pays much attention to her but when she has her little melt down over her face, Lisa and Susanna come together to help her overcome her episode. I have always just found it as a touching moment in a movie where those scenes don’t really appear.
ReplyDelete2. I agree with Valerie when she says that Susanna is just making herself crazy. I don’t think she was crazy to begin with I just think she didn’t belong in the world that she was brought into. She doesn’t really fit the image that her parents have of a proper daughter (as shown when they come to visit her and they just cant comprehend her situation). I think that because she doesn’t fit into that world, she has tried to create a world that conforms to her and people have mistaken that as a mental illness. As cliché as it sounds I think she’s just extremely misunderstood.
3. Like everyone else has said, Esther seems very observant and aware of the world around her. She is very much like Susanna in the way that she just sees the world for what it is and it’s a very raw and honest point of view. Like Jenny said, I think Esther is more aware of why she feels so lost and she seems to have an explanation for why she feels so out of place whereas Susanna just doesn’t know and doesn’t even really seem to be trying to figure out why she feels and acts the way she does.
ReplyDelete1. What stuck with me is when Polly breaks down after seeing Susanna and Toby together and she starts screaming and she has to be put in solitary confinement. In this movie, so far Polly has seemed the happiest of the bunch and by far the most naïve and the seemingly youngest out of all the girls. All of these girls in the movie are pretty young. Susanna’s only 18 in the movie, and for me it seems like Polly is at least a couple years younger than Susanna just because she seems to be perpetually stuck in the mindset of a 10 year old girl. Most ten year old girls do daydream and wonder and plan the perfect romance and how amazing they think being in love must be like. So when Polly sees Susanna, someone similar to her in age and someone who is hidden away in this mental hospital just like her, having any sort of relationship with a boy, she turns these thoughts back onto herself. Polly also seems to have almost grown up in the hospital, so I feel like this is one of her first encounters with seeing a couple together, especially with two people of her age group. So that night, while she was probably thinking about the couple, she turned it on herself, realizing that no one would probably ever be attracted to her or love her because of her scars, which might be one of the darkest feelings to exist. Just like the scene right before the guitar playing:
“Susanna: What happened to Polly?
Lisa: What needs to happen? No one's ever gonna' kiss her, man. You know, they're building a new Disney Land in Florida. If I could have any job in the world, I'd be a professional Cinderella. You could be Snow White. And Polly could be Minnie Mouse. Everyone would hug her and kiss her and love her and no one would ever know what was in that big ol' head of hers, you know?” She just realizes in this scene the permanency of her scars and her appearance and how she will never ever be able to change that. It really hit me hard to see her breakdown like that, especially because of Toby and Susanna’s relationship, which I just think is stupid and insipid.
2. To me, Susanna is not mentally ill… but I don’t think she’s making herself crazy. I think to an extent, she could be fueling herself to feel worse, but I don’t think that she is as Valerie says. However, she is not completely crazy. I think that her circumstances have caused her to feel less than satisfactory and maybe she’s acting out to get attention, which she’s definitely had a lack of from her parents. I would also say that she has some sort of mental disorder though, because her reaction and her feelings seem to be amplified, more so than those of a neglected child.
3. I think that Esther and Susanna are very similar because they are both feeling very lonely and alone and confused in life. They are both feeling that they have a lack of control in their lives as well. I also agree with Jenny that the main difference between the two is that Susanna is feeling this way but she cannot figure out why and she also cannot figure out how she can fix herself and her life. Esther, however, knows exactly what is wrong in her life and she is just not enjoying life, not confused by it.
1. I think the scene that has stuck with me most from friday's viewing is the scene in which Valerie dropped Susanna in the tub, and Susanna begins to scream. I can't say that this scene has stuck with me for any particular reason. The scene was simply so violent and surprising that it's the first thing to pop into my head when I reflect on the movie. While I understand that Susanna was upset over the loss of Lisa, her friend, it remains a mystery why Susanna translated her desire to have Lisa back into hateful behavior towards Valerie. Her anger itself is justified in my eyes, but the sheer violence with which she expressed it caught me off guard.
ReplyDelete2. I know very little about mental illness as a whole, but no, Susanna seems to me to be an absolutely normal, if slightly depressed and temporarily suicidal, 18 year old girl. It would be illogical to claim that anyone who was submitted to the life that she's been living wouldn't lose their mind. She has been drugged and has been told repeatedly, "you are crazy." While I don't believe that Susanna herself is mentally ill, and that her attempted suicide was a justified if unnecessary reaction to the life she has lived, she has become more and more unstable throughout the movie. The factor that i believe is affecting her mental welfare is her time at Claymoore, and the way the she has been treated during her time there.
3. As many have said before me, it is clear that Esther and Susanna are two of a kind. Both express a sense of emptiness and sadness and feel lost in the world. I think the core scene in the book that makes this connection is Esther's discussion of silence and how despite the noise of New York she felt isolated. Overall this theme of emptiness and isolation is carried through in both the boom and the film and surrounds the main characters Esther and Susanna.
1. The scene that stuck to me was from the moment Toby left to the point when Valerie finds her outside of Polly’s room. That scene was full of many emotions and unexpected occurrences. It begun sour with Toby’s proposal but it led to a sweet moment between Susanna and John. The sudden shift of tone of Polly’s screaming completely took me by surprise. It was completely unexpected yet the transition was very smooth and natural. The way both Lisa and Susanna handled the situation shows a unity that many people cannot understand. The way that night ended raised my hopes for Susanna. However, the way Valerie reacted made me resent her greatly. I think that this could be the most important scene because it shows the unity between the patients at the hospital.
ReplyDelete2. I think that Susanna has committed some very dangerous action but I don’t think she is mentally ill. I agree with Valerie in the sense that I think that Susanna is starting to believe she is ill. I stand by my belief that Susanna was simply sad and try suicide out of desperation. Double personality is something that intrigues me however. The way Susanna loses a grip on reality contributes to the doctors’ belief that she is insane. At first it seem like she was simply confuse but the more time she spends at the hospital, the more I think that she is in fact going insane.
3. Something that I notice right away was the way the book, like the movie, is confusing. Esther appears to have her head somewhere. Like Susanna, I think Esther is confuse and tries to find an answer. It was clear that Esther is trying to make something for herself but she is not sure what. There is also the fact that they are both young women in a changing world. I think that the biggest similarity is how Esther is detach from what is going on around her very similarly to Susanna before going to the hospital.
1. The scene that stuck out to me was the scene where the girls read over the notes that had been written about them in the doctor's office. Though Lisa jokes around as she hands out the folders, she becomes vulnerable when she gets to her own. She tries to act as though the comments mean nothing to her but it is apparent that she really does care. Each of the girls become vulnerable when each of them read their folders. It changes the mood drastically from the earlier scene in the bowling alley. These notes bring the girls back to the reason why they are here. Polly's facial expression when she looks at the picture of her once beautiful face is very powerful. She is overcome with sorrow and pain. This shows the burdens and obstacles in the lives of these girls displayed in a nicely organized file with highlighted names and simple definitions.
ReplyDelete2. Susanna isn't crazy, but she has a few mental problems. I can understand the word "borderline" being used here. Susanna isn't crazy, but she isn't perfectly sane either. A generally pessimistic attitude is not that uncommon among young adults, but when a pessimistic attitude turns into trying to commit suicide the girl needs help. Compared to the other girls Susanna is very sane. Putting Susanna in a mental institution was a little bit drastic. She should have gone to a psychiatrist to work out the problems in her life. Susanna's parents didn't know what to do with her so they decided that she must be mentally ill and in need of such a drastic fix.
3. Esther thinks a lot of herself and she is judgmental towards others. Susanna and Esther are a like in their diversion from the norm and their friendships with stronger women. The scene that stuck out to me was the scene where the Lenny comes up to the cab that Esther and Doreen are in and invites them to the bar. Esther doesn't hesitate or question this guy at all. She leaves the cab to go have drinks with a strange man she had never met before. Also she knew from the beginning that Lenny would only be interested in Doreen. Esther has low-self esteem and she relies on it to guide her through life. She clings to Doreen and will go where ever with a guy she has never met just because he paid some attention to her.
1. The scene where Susanna and Lisa sing to Polly really stayed with me. This is when I really realized that Susanna has begun to feel at home at the institution rather than being held captive. I thought that it was a really sweet moment and also showed that Lisa can actually be empathetic and somewhat human. At first when Susanna refused to leave the institution with Toby, I was really confused as to why she wouldn't leave because she doesn't actually need to be there. After seeing this scene, I have realized that while Susanna isn't necessarily mentally ill, she still needs to be at the institution. This is the one place where she has successfully got along with other people.
ReplyDelete2. Susanna is not mentally ill. Troubled, sure, but not mentally ill. I think that a lot of this diagnosis has to do with the time setting of the late 1960's, because in this day and age, I really don't think that she would be admitted to a mental institution. She is simply struggling to find herself and be and independent woman in a society that is not appreciative of women. She felt alone and tried to take her life, I honestly think it's as simple as that. I completely agree with what Valerie said, Susanna is definitely driving herself crazy.
3. When I started reading The Bell Jar, I immediately pictured Esther as Susanna (Winona Ryder). They are extremely alike in their cynicism for the world and the way that they nonchalantly talk about death. I enjoyed the scene where Doreen and Esther went out on the town. I feel like Doreen and Esther's relationship is similar to that of Susanna and Lisa because Doreen and Lisa are so much more confident than Esther and Susanna. It is interesting to see how Esther sits idly by and just kind of drifts along in the wave that is Doreen's life.
1. I was surprised when the guy who was about to be drafted came out of nowhere to visit Susanna. I can understand why he’s running off to Canada, but I can’t understand why he would run off to Canada to start a life with a girl that he only knew for one night. His decision is rash and crazy, but I thought that it worked well to show Susanna’s change and her resistance to his proposal. It lifted me to see Susanna actually wanting to change, and realizing herself that Claymoor will help her. Her old life, represented by her boyfriend, is rejected by her new, changed self. But, her recovery stagnated because of Lisa, a more influential force in Susanna’s life.
ReplyDelete2. Susanna, as the taxi driver and the steward guy she kissed have said, doesn’t seem crazy to me. The only problem that she had was her denial of the suicide attempt, but denial doesn’t make somebody crazy. Denial could possibly lead to worse outcomes, and therapy could help temper Susanna’s emotions, but she isn’t “crazy” like Polly or Lisa. I agree with Valerie’s diagnosis of Lisa. But, while Claymoor is treating Susanna’s minor depression, the insane environment of a mental facility is making her crazy, just as how prison can harden criminals. I don’t think Susanna is “making herself crazy”, but rather Claymoor is.
3. The parallel between Esther and Susanna is unquestionable. They are both daughters of well off families who are trying to find their place in the world, with Susanna in the mental hospital finding her place among the residents and Esther’s interactions with the short guy at the bar and at Lenny’s house. Susanna thinks through her drawings while Esther recollects herself with her hot baths. They are both depressing characters to me. Esther is surrounded with action but she is completely detached from it, just as how Susanna is detached from the world around her, constantly flashing back or gazing out the window. They’re both bored of the world, and want to get out of it, but they just don’t.
1. There were a couple scenes that really stayed with me. The first one was the scene when Lisa and Susannah stay up at night and sing to Polly. This shows that now, Susannah really kind of belongs, or feels like she belongs. Earlier, all she wanted to do was get a quick rest and get out. But now, she is willing to get in all kinds of trouble for this one girl. The other scene is when Susannah can’t leave with Toby. For similar reason to the one above, this one really stuck with me, because Susannah is outside, right next to a car with the chance to leave this place. But, she turns him down.
ReplyDelete2. I don’t think that Susannah is crazy. Yes, she has some problems, but everyone does, similar to what Lisa says. Nobody is perfect. But, like Toby said, she doesn’t belong there. If you compare her with the other patients at Claymoore, she seem very sane. Her problems could have been worked through if someone had actually listened to her instead of saying what they thought was wrong with her.
3. I think that Susannah and Esther are both similar in that they feel isolated from the rest of the world. Perhaps isolated isn’t the best world, but more like they don’t belong. So far, there hasn’t really been a moment that has stuck out to me. If I had to choose one, it would be when Esther just left Doreen in the hall in her own vomit. Going back to Esther and Susannah, I think the difference between the two is that Susannah feels more lost, while Esther is more self aware of why she doesn’t belong.
1. I love when Susanna and Lisa take it upon themselves to cheer up Polly. To me, this seems to be when they're at their happiest. They do what they can for each other, they care for each other. In a weird way, this makes Claymoor more normal and more dysfunctional. It's to see these "self-indulgent" characters care for one another but they're doing it because how else are they going to survive in a place like this?
ReplyDelete2.I don't see Susanna as a crazy person. At least she doesn't seem like one compared to some of the other girls. Valerie is right in that she seems to be pushing herself to be more of an outsider than she already is, but I think Susanna describes what she is best when she says, "I'm just sad." Everything that she feels seems pretty normal or at least understandable. To be unsure of what you want to do, who you want to be, how to individualize yourself...We've all thought of this to some extent.
3. The two characters are very similar. They both feel like outsiders and are easily influenced by intense characters. I feel like they both have an arrogance about them that is a repercussion from their feelings of loneliness.
1. I was surprised to finally meet Dr. Wick and see what she was like. Her personality seemed a bit more... subdued, perhaps, than the other inmates- er, patients would have us believe with such sobriquets as "Dr. Dyke." It really piqued my interest to see the interaction between her and Susanna, and see how the director portrayed the two characters going at it. From a distance, it might be a matronly schoolmistress scolding a petulant student- Dr. Wick seems to be the reasonable one, while Susanna offers no reasons. Wick's personality is especially interesting compared to that of Dr. Potts, who often seems off in the clouds. Dr. Wick is definitely there, intent on probing the psyches of her patients more intimately and persistently than Dr. Potts seems interested in.
ReplyDelete2. I think part of our societal disdain of mental patients stems from our natural aversion to disease of any sort, which must only be exacerbating with diseases of the mind. I think that we fear these afflictions more because their symptoms are much less clearly defined than those of a physical sickness. This fact is clear in the film; sometimes the characters may act normally, like girls at a boarding school, in fact (as in the scene involving the underground tunnels and the bowling alley), and sometimes they may go completely beserk. To this effect, Susanna does not strike me as being mentally ill, just frustrated. The conditions ascribed to her seem a bit contrived, as if describing normal behavior, and Susanna does make this point frequently. But at times it appears as though Susanna has some sort of deep-seated discomfort with herself that may be more indicative of a true mental condition. The way she slowly convinces herself that she attempted suicide is kind of unsettling.
3. Esther and Susanna have the same sort of detachment from the world about them. Esther passes her classes in Physics and Chemistry with A's without actually caring about the material, in fact tricking the professor into thinking that she appreciates the lectures and the science, but in reality just memorizing the formulae (this professor must not give very original tests). Susanna decides not to do anything after High School, much to everyone's chagrin, and is very much her own girl and not anyone else's, like Esther (or Elly, to Doreen).
1. The scene that stuck with me the most from the movie was probably the bathtub scene, when the nurse told susana what she really thought about her. It was the first time that one of the nurses lost character, and it was really powerful, both for the viewer and susana.
ReplyDelete2. I don't think she's crazy. I think she has issues, but the issues aren't on the scale of "crazy". As Lisa said, everyone feels the way she does.
3. I'm not even sure who Esther is haha. I thought the protagonist was susana
I really liked the scene in which the girls all go out for ice cream because we see how they behave when they get out in the “real world.” Now, while I think maybe they are a little overly energetic because they don’t get out much, I think the interaction with other people is good for some of them. I also liked the scene because it really shows the established friend group, which is something that Susanna later says, she has friends there…people who will stand with her.
ReplyDeleteI don’t think Susanna was ever really crazy, but I do think she needed to find peace with herself somewhere where she felt welcomed and not alone. Some of the other girls obviously had more serious conditions and I think that it helped for Susanna to see them. What her parents considered “not normal” could actually be improved if she wanted to, and she saw in that institute that she was luck and had that choice, while some of the other girls maybe didn’t have as much of an option because they had more serious illnesses. Susanna and Lisa’s friendship was also key, to Susanna’s realization that she didn’t have to keep living life as a “crazy person.” Although, Susanna had a lot of fun with Lisa, she realized that Lisa was not an example to follow.
Like people have said, Esther Greenwood seems very detached from her friends, just like Susanna doesn’t really have any friends and feels like an outsider in her parent’s world. Also like people have said Esther is pretty self-centered and I think that is because her expectations keep being let down and so then it becomes something about her, because the world is not satisfying enough.
The scene that stuck with me the most was the scene where all of the women snuck out to go bowl. The most interesting element of this movie is it’s ability to make mental patients relatable. We begin to actually like Lisa in these scenes and for a moment we see normalcy amongst the women. Their mischievousness makes each character charismatic. The entire movie we are debating Susanna’s sanity, and this is a scene that I feel truly expresses these women’s humanity.
ReplyDeleteNo, Susanna doesn’t strike me as mentally ill. There are elements of Susanna that we don’t quite understand, and that leads to our questioning of our trust in her as a narrator. We know she has issues, and we saw that towards the beginning of the film, but she is clearly different from the other women. I don’t necessarily agree with Valerie’s opinion either. It seems as though Susanna has been pushed to the edge by someone or something. She is not mentally handicapped, but she is being treated as if she is and that simply accentuates her “exhaustion”.
I’m not sure what to make of Esther just yet. Her narration seems to be very similar to that of Susanna’s in that she questions her own thought process. Esther, like Valerie, is likable because she doesn’t fit the stereotypical mental patient image. I thought her description of the healing powers of taking a bath was insightful into the way her mind works. She can remember every detail of every ceiling she has looked at while taking a bath. This scene is striking because it shows the depth of her thought and how extraordinary that depth is. Esther and Susanna represent something that is inside of all of us, and are such great characters because they force us to face that potential character and listen to it.
Without a doubt the most powerful scene thus far has been the scene in the bathtub where Valerie sets Susanna straight. She has no desire to hear this, but she is desperately searching for a reason she can't handle reality like the rest of the world. Unfortunately, there is no obvious answer, or at least not one that is recognizable by the doctors or herself or those around her. All she needs is someone like Valerie to shake her up enough to stop being wrapped up with herself.
ReplyDeleteCrazy is not having control. Its that fear that people have of the unknown. As soon an something is unfamiliar emotions are heightened. Not everything is unfamiliar so we don't all go around freaking out, but growing up is. College and adult life are terrifying. Susanna was apparently suffering from headaches and took some aspirin, then more aspirin, then one thing leads to the next and she finds herself chasing it down with a bottle of vodka. I don't think it's necessarily a sign of craziness. Thats the frightening part, its so easy to lose control so fast. To feel "social contrariness and a general pessimistic attitude" is normal at some point in life. To dwell on it isn't, and Susanna is evidently doing just that, and not surprisingly can't figure out why she is the only one pondering these kinds of things, so she gets caught in a vicious downward spiral. Obviously Susanna has grown up in a disconnected family who hasn't provided any sort of structure and she's lacking that. Valerie is the only one who has the guts to tell the truth. She makes her face reality the way it is, in a way taking away that element of having to try to appear a certain way and hide from insanity.
Esther is not to be trusted as a narrator. The world through her lens is terribly skewed. It seems like she only sees things that directly affect her and the way she acts appears unsettled. There is no air of confidence to her state of mind, only unease and ceaseless distress.
1. The scene in the ice cream shop and the scene where Susanna's "boyfriend" shows up both stick in my mind together. I think these scenes are important because it shows the moments where Susanna realizes that she has actually become friends with everyone in the ward. She is in fact more comfortable living in the world inside the ward with crazy people than she is on the outside.
ReplyDelete2. The scene where Val tell her that she thinks she is not crazy really made me question a lot about Susanna as a character. I feel like the audience is supposed to believe that Susanna is crazy, but when I look at Susanna's actions, Val's theory seems like it could have some merit. Susanna obviously seems less traditionally crazy as everyone else in the ward, however I think it is interesting to note that it seems like Daisy, the one who was released, actually probably fits into society better than Susanna right now. I think that it is possible that Susanna did not want to deal with the pressures of graduating highschool and figuring her life out, so that could drive her to insanity.
3. I really like the comparison between Esther and Susanna. They're pretty similar in their views about life. It's sort of like reading Susanna's thoughts when I read the book.
1. The scene that stuck with me the most in Susanna's sudden outburst at Val, when Susanna is in the tub and Val is standing over her. Something about how both characters where the most vulnerable they had been in the whole movie. Val was being attacked racially and she was not in control of the situation like she normally is, and then we see Susanna stuck in a bath tub, laughing hysterically. No one is in control of this situation, and for the first time in the whole movie the characters are not in control of what themselves. They are lashing out and taking out things that are meant for other people out on each other, I mean i do not normally feel things during a movie, but that scene made me shiver, or get goose bumps.
ReplyDelete2. I think she is scared and in need of someone to reach out and help her. Not take control of her like her parents or the psychiatrists do but someone like lisa who wants her to live her life. She wants someone to listen to her and not judge her and not tell her parents and not take things away from her because she is not saying the right things. SHe needs someone who will teach her how to live and teach her how to take control of her own life. I do not think she is mentally ill. I think she is a teenage girl who needs help finding who she is.
3. I think that the way we see Esther is a really good representation of Susanna. I think this book is really cool to read as we are watching the movie because I am getting to see a glimpse of what she is thinking. I like to know what is going on inside this girls head because this movie is complicated, so this book is great to read along with.
One scene that really stuck with me was the scene where Lisa and Susanna escape. I think this scene really shows the more pathetic side of Lisa’s insanity. Lisa is usually so strong and she is always fighting but in this scene you can see that she is truly scared, and I think that’s a really special thing.
ReplyDeleteI definitely think they’re both a bit right. Although Susanna did try to kill herself and I do think that needed to be addressed, I think that Susanna could definitely exist in society in a way that the others could not. I also feel that Susanna uses the fact that she is in a mental institution for many things that she should not. Like in that scene between Valerie and Susanna, Susanna does not seem to be acting under any sort of mental illness, she just seems like she is throwing a tantrum.
I don't know how I feel about Esther yet. I feel like her introversion may get in the way of us knowing or understanding all of what is going on around her, especially since she seems fairly self centered. I do think that she is smart though, and I think we will hear and see a lot of interesting things with her as the narrator. I think I see a bit of Susanna in her. I mean, they both seem fairly pessimistic about the human race. I think I would need to read farther into the book to be able to see more of their similarities, simply because it is hard to get a character sketch of someone who seems as odd and hard to understand as Esther.
1. The scene that really stuck with me was the scene where Valerie throws Susanna into the bathtub. It was so sudden and so shocking, but I think it was exactly what Susanna needed. But then, Susanna suddenly starts verbally attacking Valerie with extremely violent racial insults. I wasn't expecting that at all. Susanna is so quiet usually, that I wasn't expecting so much hatred. Obviously, the increased aggression comes from hanging around Lisa, but I still haven't decided if Lisa is the medicine Susanna needs to live life, or if Lisa is dragging Susanna down to her level. Anyways, the thing that really makes me sad about the scene is how Susanna has lost the support of Valerie. Valerie seemed so nice in the beginning and even her throwing Susanna in the bath is a form of tough love, but now Susanna has "burned the bridge" so to speak between her and Valerie. I think Susanna will regret it later on.
ReplyDelete2. I don't actually know a lot about mental illness but from what I've seen I think Susanna is definitely mentally ill. But she doesn't have the same kind of mental illness as everyone else in the ward. Susanna is depressed, and doesn't know what to do with her life. She is so tired, mentally and physically that she no longer knows what to do. She is stuck in life, and I think that Claymoor was the perfect choice for her because it allowed her to make friends and move forward in life. Before Claymoor she had no friends, and nobody who would back her up or cover her back in times of need. The perfect example would be the scene in the ice cream shop when that lady comes up and starts bitching to Susanna. Lisa is completely on Susanna's side and verbally fucks up Mrs.whatever and her daughter. It was awesome.
3. Esther and the old Susanna are so similar. They're both so lonely and afraid of the world. Another similarity, is that neither of them really fit into the stereotype that is a "mental patient." They both also seem to have their minds in different realities at all times. They seem to be able to almost drift in and out of reality at will. I pretty sure it would be classified as an avoidance tactic, but I'm not a psychologist so I can't be sure.
1. The scene that stood out to me the most on Friday was the scene when they are departing from the hospital, and Lisa calls Susannah “Jamie” mistakenly. This little snapshot fills in the gaps in the story line concerning Lisa and her previous friend, Jamie, who we know committed suicide. This really shows to what extent Lisa is so far gone, and why she has been put in the facility.
ReplyDelete2. I do not think that Susannah needs to be interred at the facility. Yes, she needs a therapist, as is shown by her suicide attempt, but being in the facility lends itself to her worsening condition. I think that the loss of control of her life, something that was very valuable to her, has slowly driven her down a bad road, as we can see in her outburst at Valerie. Anger has continually built up in her, making her an angry, unstable person.
3.Esther reminds me of Nick from The Great Gatsby quite a bit. She attaches herself to people that fascinate her, who maintain an air of mystery and a sort of distance from the others, much as Nick attached himself to Gatsby. She is extremely observant as Nick was, noting the small details. She also seems to constantly judge the people surrounding her, another similarity to Nick.
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ReplyDeleteOne of the scenes that stuck out to me was when the girls sneak out during the night and go bowling. I like this scene because the girls are usually fighting and for once they are together having fun without judging each other. I also like it because they are enjoying themselves and they are not mad, sad or throwing tantrums. Another scene was when the girls went to Melvin's office and began looking at their files. Poly has hers and sees a picture of her before she had her accident. She stands there and the camera captures her face and reaction. I think this scene and that moment especially show how these girls disagree with what Melvin and society thinks of them. They have their own idea of how they are and act and they all get upset after reading their files. In my opinion they either dislike what they read or do not want to accept the "truth" society and Melvin are passing upon them by calling them mental. Another scene that stuck out was when she rejects Toby in order to stay at Claymore. She totally has the chance to escape and leave which is what she has been wanting and waiting for for a while. She decides to stay because she wants to stay with her friends. That was a surprise at first but now I admire her for staying and preferring her friends. Now she has begun to fit in and feel comfortable with the girls at least even if she hasn’t quit yet with the institution.
ReplyDeleteI don’t necessarily think Susanna is mentally ill. I would classify her more as kind of crazy if that is different. Dictionary.com defines crazy as senseless and informely as anxious or eager. I think this describes what I think of her better. She is nervous about life and she is also lost and just does not act normal sometimes. At the same time she seems more ordinary that most girls except maybe Georgina and sometime Polly.
1) A moment that really sticks out to me the most is the scene when Susanna is in the bathtub and she starts yelling at Valerie. This was the most alive we get to see Susanna and we realize she’s got so much anger and frustration inside her. She knows she has a problem but she doesn’t understand what it is or why it’s happened. This is why she asks Valerie to tell her what he problem is. I think why it stuck to me is because maybe this is how many people that have problems feel. It is so intense inside and to them life is so dramatic because of what they are feeling but to everyone else on the outside they just look silly. Susanna is in the midst of a deep depression and feels everything in the moment just waiting for things to get better while Valeria sees her as a lazy girl that doesn’t feel like putting in effort. It’s just so sad how she can never actually find someone to relate to or someone who will actually really understand what she feels in the moment.
ReplyDelete2) I think there is a chance that Susanna may have clinical depression but I really don’t think she is mentally ill. She seems very conscious of her actions and the consequences. She knows what to say and what to do. It’s not like she’s getting pleasure out of hurt others or something. On the contrary, even when she feels unmotivated to do anything, she continues to write, take her medication and tries to build friendships. She comes up with ways to cheer up Polly and Lisa when they are stuck in that room. She’s just sad like she told the cab driver. She can’t help it.
3) So far Esther seems pretty sad and depressed. I most definitely see some of Susanna in her except for the fact that Esther is more prudent. Esther feels stuck like the eye of a tornado. I feel that I can relate a lot to her. For example, the scene in which she sits in the bathtub and just stares at everything and remembers every detail. I love showers too. I just like how real she is and how much she thinks and analyzes things.