First: sorry I missed you guys today. I hope to be back tomorrow. I'll certainly be reading your responses here with interest.
A couple of things first. This is Sylvia Plath reading a poem called "The Applicant": it gives you an idea of what she pursued in her poetry, and in this particular poem, it crosses into our discussion of the novel. Second are responses to Plath, and particularly in many cases The Bell Jar, by some contemporary writers. I'm particularly struck by what Lena Dunham, creator, writer, director, and star of HBO's "Girls" says. Just take out "Plath" and replace it with "Esther" and I think it applies to the novel we're reading.
I wonder if Plath would have been saved had she been born in a
different time: in a time when psycho-pharmacologists are no more
shameful to visit than hairdressers and women write celebrated personal
essays about being bad mothers and cutters and are reclaiming the word
slut. Would she have been a riot grrrl, embracing an angry feminist
aesthetic? Addicted to Xanax? A blogger for Slate? Would she, like me,
have found a cosy coffeehouse environment on the internet, a way to
connect with people who understood her aesthetic and validated her
experience? Would she have been less dependent on the approval of
viewers and critics and more aware of the positive effect her book was
having on splintered psyches and girls with short bangs everywhere? Or
would that kind of connectedness and access to unmitigated and
misspelled negativity have driven her even madder?
We're one chapter away from the novel's conclusion—perhaps some of you have read it already. Where Chapter 19 ends is awful: Joan's suicide, Joan whom Esther thinks had "thoughts [that] were nor my thoughts, nor [had] feelings that were my feelings, but we were close enough so that her thoughts and feelings seems a wry black image of my own" (219). Joan seems to me acts as a mirror of Esther. She "continued to pop in at every crisis of my life to remind me of what I had been, and what I had been through, and carry on her own separate but similar crisis of my own." Is Joan a hint of what Esther faces in the future? Does Joan, a lesbian, present an alternative to the heterosexual world that Esther thinks is "normal," but who can't imagine such a radical way of behaving? "What does a woman see in a woman that she can't see in a man?" Which begs the question of what exactly does Esther see in men? Certainly not "tenderness," which is Doctor Nolan's answer to Esther's question.
So:
1. What particularly jumped out at you in the reading? Why?
2. "I was my own woman," Esther thinks after she has bought a diaphragm. "I am climbing to freedom, freedom from fear, freedom from marrying the wrong person, like Buddy Willard, just because of sex, freedom from the Florence Crittendon Homes where all the poor girls go who should have been fitted out like me..." In this part of the reading, has contraception given Esther "freedom"? Is she really her own woman?
3. Why do you think Joan killed herself? I'm not convinced I even know. But give it a shot.
4. As with the blog itself—just look at how much I wrote above—I sometimes, often times perhaps, say too much. So tell me: if you could lead the discussion tomorrow (or Monday, in case I don't make it back tomorrow), what would you want to talk about?
Hope you all are well, and I hope to see you tomorrow.
1. What jumped out to me in this reading particularly was how quickly Esther started actually making decisions. She finally decided to sort of say “Fuck what everyone else thinks! I want to have sex, and I want it to be safe, because I do not want kids right now.” When she goes to get birth control, that’s her making a decision to be prepared for sex before marriage, which she wants (whether it is just to be an experience checked off on her list, or whether it is something she really wants to do). Then she goes and meets this guy, Irwin, and after a couple of dates, it seems, decides to sleep with him. Earlier on in the book, she definitely had the chance to sleep with other men, but because she couldn’t decide who she wanted to be or where she wanted to go in life, she turned them down. She’s dragged out this dilemma over 18 chapters, and now she’s finally picked a side, and from there, she’s started taking charge, which is a nice change of pace from the passive Esther we’ve seen all along so far.
ReplyDelete2. I think that yes, getting contraception does give Esther some freedom. She has finally made a decision on her own and of her own accord. Yes, it is going against many things she has been told growing up, but that’s exactly why it gives her so much freedom. She’s made an active decision to go out and get the diaphragm and use it for free will. No one is holding her back and no one stops her from getting it.
3. I’m really not sure. I think it’s possibly because she sees so much of herself in Esther and then Esther just tells her straight out that she doesn’t like her. That could possibly be enough to bring her to that point, but also think about how little outsiders knew about Esther before she attempted suicide. Joan could have all this inner neuroses and things that are driving her mad, that no one mentions thus far. I think Joan is to us, who Esther is to the world around her.
4. If I could lead the discussion, I’d want to talk about exactly what Lena Dunham said, which is: if Sylvia Plath was alive today, how would she survive? I’d also want to discuss what would it be like if 16/17/18 year old Sylvia Plath was a student at Paideia. How would she handle the situations we go through everyday? How would people treat her? What would happen around the school if she killed herself while attending Paideia? These are things I’ve been wondering lately, and I’d like to hear what other people have to say.
1. The part that jumped out at me the most was right at the beginning of chapter 18. Esther has just woken up from her first round of shock treatment with Dr. Nolan, and it seems to have had a positive effect on her. “All the heat and fear had purged itself. I felt surprisingly at peace. The bell jar hung, suspended, a few feet above my head. I was open to the circulating air”(216). It makes me wonder if she feels an actually physical presence surrounding and depressing her, or if the shocks have just brought about a new clarity of mind. She says that the jar is a few feet above her head. So she feels better, but she knows she’s not completely cured. This also makes me wonder what exactly went wrong when she got shock treatment from Dr. Gordon. He’s clearly not a great psychiatrist, but it’s looking now like he needs to be sued for medical malpractice.
ReplyDelete2. It’s given her freedom in the sense that she now feels she has a greater degree of control. The contraception keeps her from feeling trapped in some predetermined miserable life brought on by an unplanned child. What’s interesting is, this was probably always an option. Couldn’t she have gotten a diaphragm when she was back in college or in New York? It think it’s more the fact that she now sees she can do this. She can sleep with someone without locking herself away for the rest of her life. So yes, this and all of the other little freedoms she’s discovering make her her own woman.
3. I’m not sure, but it might have to do with the fact that she’s having some sort of relapse. Esther is clearly getting better and Joan is not. Perhaps she was never better. Getting that apartment was clearly a bad idea. It brings Daisy from Girl, Interrupted to mind. Perhaps it’s just Plath’s way of showing us someone else having problems like Esther, except from the outside in. We don’t understand why Joan did it because we haven’t been inside her head for an entire book. Esther’s suicide attempt must look to others how Joan’s suicide looks to us.
4. I’d like to talk about Esther’s seeming recovery. She’s still clearly Esther, but there’s a different air about her. It’s hard to put a finger on exactly what’s gotten better. Also, what made it happen? The fact that he has a trustworthy doctor? Are the shocks just doing exactly what they’re supposed to?
1. I agree with Molly, the most striking thing about these chapters was how quickly Esther seemed to start getting better and gain independence. She seemed very different from the girl who tried to kill herself in the cellar. She finally decides that she wants to take control of her life and make her own decisions. I found it interesting though that she wouldn't tell Joan that she lost her virginity. I couldn't tell whether she was trying to protect Joan (because of the crush) or if she was embarrassed. Regardless of why, it was a completely different emotion from the relief that she actually felt from loosing her virginity.
ReplyDelete2. I saw this scene as incredibly liberating for Esther. I do think she is finally "free" from her fear of being a wife or a mother. It is now in her control whether or not she gets pregnant. Sexually, I do think Esther is her own woman now. However, that isn't necessarily the root of independence. Still, for Esther sex was a tremendous burden in her life and the diaphragm lightens that burden.
3. I'm really not sure why Joan killed herself, and I'm not sure we are meant to. I think the suicide serves as a reminder to Esther to keep going. The fact that Esther didn't spiral down after Joan's death is huge. If I had to say, I would suggest that Joan saw her future as a lesbian, one with depression as well, to be too bleak and empty.
4. I would like to discuss her relationship with Joan, as well as Dr.Norton, who practically becomes her mother. Regarding her relationship with Dr. Norton, I would also talk about why Esther suddenly hates her mother so much and wants to get away from her. Lastly, I would find it interesting to talk about Plath herself. I agree with what one of the writers said, that it undermines Plath to call this work autobiographical, but I do think it is important to discuss Plath's life.
1. One of the many things that struck me in these 2 chapters was when Esther was in the waiting room at the place where she got her birth control. The internal monologue that she had about marriage and babies and how she didn’t understand why she was so “unmaternal” and didn’t want anything to do with it was interesting to me because in this time period, that’s what women should want to do. They should want to have children and be mothers and Esther doesn’t understand why that doesn’t appeal to her in the slightest and its striking because as someone who always seems to “play by the rules” Esther is finally openly disagreeing with the structure of society by getting birth control and trying to avoid this life. Obviously later she ends up having a child, but in this moment, she’s doing what she wants to do.
ReplyDelete2. Like I said in response to the first question, she’s doing what she wants. I think that’s freedom, being able to make decisions based off of what you want and not what your parents or friends or society wants. I think this is another example of her gaining control over a situation and she is very methodical about it and she likes the power that she holds over her own body, so yes I do think in this moment that she is pretty free.
3. I have no idea why Joan killed herself. And like Zoe said, I don’t think we’re meant to know why, it’s just supposed to serve as an example to Esther. Joan kind of mimics Esther in some ways and I think there was a lot more going on with Joan than she ever let on and something just ate her up to the point where her only way out was to hang herself. I think it serves as a way for Esther to see, “that could have been me”.
4. Along with Molly, I would also like to talk about how Sylvia Plath would survive today and what being someone like Esther Greenwood in a society like today would be like. I’d also like to talk about Joan and Esther’s stay in the asylum in general.
1.What stood out to me in this reading was that is seems that Esther is becoming less and less afraid of what is going on around her. In the beginning of the book, she talks about her fear of tipping people, but here she lets go of her fear of shock therapy and seems to be grateful for the treatments because they helped lift the bell jar and made her feel “surprisingly at peace.” Throughout the book, she has talked about her fear of the consequences of sex, and in this section, she does something about it, something to erase her fear, and gets fitted for a diaphragm. She’s becoming less and less fragile. Esther is getting better; she is now able to handle the things that scare her and confront them head on.
ReplyDelete2.I do think it gives her some kind of freedom because, as I said in my previous answer, it frees her from an inhibiting fear. The diaphragm gives her the power to confront her fears, and I think it provides a boost of self confidence that she so desperately needs. In the beginning of the book, she says that she “wasn’t steering anything, not even [herself],” but here, finally, she is “steering” herself and taking ownership of herself and her problems. She is no longer cowering from the diversions of life and is finally making decisions and go down paths she wants to go down.
3.Joan’s suicide is strange to me because I never thought that Joan’s condition was as serious as Esther’s. Joan’s whole reason for coming to the institution was suspicious to me, because it seemed like the only reason she was there was because she saw Esther’s story in the paper and decided to run away just because she wasn’t satisfied with her life. Joan talked about how she was planning to be a psychiatrist, and she was able to move out of the asylum and into the real world. But then Esther tells us that Joan came back to Belsize. Something must have happened where Joan couldn’t handle the real world anymore, and then she just couldn’t deal with the world at all. Esther and Joan’s last interaction (at least the last interaction we saw) was pretty traumatic, and I think the stress and frightening nature of Esther’s trip of the hospital could have added to Joan’s overall displeasure of living.
4. Like Zoe, I would like to talk about Esther’s relationship with Dr. Nolan. In Chapter 17, Esther said that she loved Dr. Nolan, and we haven’t Esther express these kind of emotions towards anybody else in the novel. I think Dr. Nolan is a great contributor to Esther’s improving condition, and I wonder if without Dr. Nolan Esther would have survived her illness or gotten any better.
What jumps out at me from the reading is this new Esther that we see, a girl who is truly becoming her own individual. I think a main struggle in the book is Esther's struggle of being her own person versus being the person that society expects her to be. She thinks one way, and then she acts another. She has her own dreams, her own thoughts on what she wants to do with her life, but these are tampered with by the society around her. There is a struggle within Esther even on who she is and who she aspires to be versus the path that she is on and her physical actions outside of her thoughts. And I think this is what ultimately drives her to her attempted suicide. But now, for the first time in this book and in this society, we see Esther's thoughts and Esther's mindset really matching up with her actions and who she outwardly projects herself as. She is, I would say, a very real person for the first time in her life, very genuine in this way. Of course, this does not necessarily make her a pleasant person, but it is truly Esther for the first time. For example, she honestly says what it is she thinks about Joan, telling her that she makes her want to puke after Joan said that she liked her. She takes sex into her own hands, through seducing Irwin as well as going on birth control. It's almost as if she is no longer trapped by herself and by society, which is ironic as she is physically stuck in a mental hospital.
ReplyDeleteI find this question to be a very difficult one, as "freedom" in this context is not defined. I would argue that in some sense yes, Esther has been given freedom in that she is now in control of her body, as far as having a baby goes. Her options have in fact opened up, as she talks about, and she is free from the fear of and the possibility of an unexpected child in her life that would potentially limit her choices in life or force her into a decision she does not want to live with. She is free from the possibility of not being in control. As far as sex and a child, at least. It also allows her the freedom of sexual activity, more or less, as a child is no longer a factor and she can potentially do as she please. Having said that, I do not think she is free in that she is now her own woman. Still, because of society's commentary and the pressures it has put on her to do so, Esther feels the need to lose her virginity. Not because she wants to cherish the connection between herself and a man, or because she wants to try it out or even have sex in the first place, but because she wants to fit in, to join society almost, to catch up with Buddy Willard. Despite this physical move, Esther is still wrapped up in and influenced completely by society and the world around her.
It's funny how Esther talks enviously about how Joan is just her only a few steps ahead, because I see Joan as the Esther from the beginning of the book. To everyone, she appears fine. She's lively, she's bright, and to anyone who's not looking for it she looks like she's perfectly normal and doing fine with her life. I've commented that in the beginning, we see so much of Esther and her unhappiness through her thoughts, an aspect that other characters and society in this book do not see, that without that insight into her mind we too would assume that she is perfectly fine. But with Joan, we do not have this insight into her thoughts, and I think this is why her suicide comes as a bit of a shock. Nobody expects it, because nobody is looking for it. With Esther it seemed almost inevitable, given her outlook on the world and her life and herself, how she felt trapped and constricted by society and by herself. I think she and Joan were extremely similar in this way, in their thoughts. We just had no way of knowing.
I would want to talk about the hospital that Esther's staying in a little more. I would want to talk about how much she is actually recovering on account of the hospital, and who she is becoming as a result of the hospital and the doctors and the people around her. I have to say I've been a little confused while reading this part of the book, as I am confused about the change that's happening with Esther, if any change at all. I want to discuss the conclusion of the book, as well as the main problem of the book, and how it ties into these final few chapters at the hospital and Esther's change and progression while there.
ReplyDelete1. A moment in the novel that struck me as a little odd was her acute dislike of babies. She describes everything from the way they look, hold themselves, and even smell, in a negative way. It may be true, that she simply does not like babies. But I felt that a child, especially a child of her own, marks a bit of a tie, a responsibility, and a love that she does not have room for in her heart. Esther is so afraid of commitment to anything that having a child, which is the ultimate commitment, drives her away. Choosing the birth control means denying that commitment, and avoiding the decision just like she has all of her life.
ReplyDelete2. This moment felt extremely freeing for Esther, but the hemorrhaging, or the consequences of her decision, leave long lasting ripple effects for her. She has gained freedom in the sense that she no longer follows the path set out for her, or the rules and expectations set by those around her, but I feel that she loses a bit of her self after losing her virginity. She acts glad when it happens, but I think the blood represented the consequences of a large decision like having sex for the first time.
3. Joan is extremely attached to Esther, and when Esther begins to bleed, and seeks Joan for her help, Joan feels that she has to prove her worth to Esther. She did eventually get Esther to the hospital, but I could feel how helpless Joan must have felt amongst the crazed hullabaloo of the hospital. She felt that she was not there for a purpose, or there to help anyone, even though she tried so hard. I think that worthlessness drove her over the edge.
4. I would be interested to talk about Esther's mom, or Joan, or any character attached to Esther and the relationship they have with her. She is obviously going through a critical point in her life, and her friends and family feel rejected due to the fact she hates them all. I would be interested to see, what people though of Esther's mother's reaction to her attempted suicide and subsequent hospitalization.
1. These two last chapters were very interesting and shocking. Joan herself was an interesting addition to Esther’s life. I was very intrigue about her relationship with Esther. At first, I thought I did not like her particularly but as the chapters progressed, my opinion changed. Her bold statement of what her feelings toward Esther are took me by surprised. The way she took care of Esther after her encounter with Irwin made me realized that she really like Esther and care for her. I felt really bad about her death but was disturbed by Esther’s lack of feeling.
ReplyDelete2. I would agree that contraception does give her freedom. She no longer has to worry about getting pregnant and force to do she does not want to do, raise a kid. It is good to see that she is finally making decision by herself and even a little rebellious given the time period. Not only is she making a decision but she is also making a decision that will affect her life on an extended time lapse.
3. As I mention, this was one of the most shocking and unexpected moments of the books, in my opinion. I am still not clear I comprehend why Joan would do something like this. My guess would be that she was swallowed by her “bell jar” and simply gave up. I think that Esther rejecting her and later Esther’s need of her aid finally broke. She probably knew that Esther was leaving the hospital and she could not cope with the idea. I think that she genially loved Esther and that the idea of losing her was too much for her fragile mind.
4. A little thing I think is worth mentioning, even if it cannot be discuss with great depth, is the role of race in this. There is a great deal of diversity and it is usually see as a bad thing, for example Marco. With that said, I would like to talk about Joan and Esther’s relationship and what could have possibly led to the suicide. I think that this is a very important thing because Joan mirrors Esther in my way and she could very likely be her future.
1. Something that struck me in the reading was Esther's relationship with Joan. The hierarchy of the mental hospital is somewhat strange. Getting better gives a patient a higher social standing. The relationship between Joan is like this as well. When Esther is getting more privileges than Joan, Joan pays special attention to her so that, as if Esther was a mirror, the benefits Ester gets from seeming better will reflect back on her.When Joan was in a better place she barely paid any attention to Esther. Joan is a little bit like Daisy from Girl Interrupted. Her death will have a huge effect on Esther. It will give her more of a desire to live. Susanna went through the same experience with Daisy. Joan made the asylum feel normal for Esther and with Joan gone Esther will have to think more about the reality of her situation.
ReplyDelete2. Buying a diaphragm does not make Esther her own woman. Birth control is a way for Esther to try to force freedom. Being able to use birth control gives Esther more control. All through her life she has needed to hold onto the reins tightly. She goes in the required path and controls everything. Once she got to a point where she had to choose where to turn it became more difficult. Birth control takes a weight off of her back, but it is just a way for her to side step the real issues that face her. It is a baby step in gaining a sense of independence and not caring about what other people think, but she only does it because she can. If Buddy Willard was a virgin Esther getting birth control and having sex wouldn't have been on the forefront of her mind.
3. In a way I was not all that surprised by Joan's suicide. When she went missing I knew it wasn't good. Part of it was a reaction to Esther's medical issue. Being a lesbian in the 1950's was not easy and Joan was very depressed. She hid it with superficial conversation and casualness surrounding her place in the asylum, but it was always there. Watching Esther bleed brought out all of her angst and hurt. When Esther is sitting on the couch bleeding she thinks, "I realized that that she honestly took my explanation at face value that my going to bed with Irwin was utterly incomprehensible to her, and his appearance a mere prick to her pleasure at my arrival" (231). The issues that Joan has to face are thrown at her in a way that she ultimately can't handle. Her suicide was the effect of a constant build up of emotion and tiredness that Joan could not fight anymore.
4. I'd talk about the effect of the era on these girls and about the hospital as a whole. What makes the difference for Esther with this hospital? How is someone characterized as well again? What does that really mean. Like Molly and Tanja, I would like to talk about what this story would look like in modern times.
1. The moment that struck me the most was when Esther is talking about Joan, and the other women in her life like Philomena Guinea and Jay Cee. Esther says, "They all wanted to adopt me in some way, and, for the price of their care and influence, have me resemble them". Esther doesn't want to be like them and she doesn't want to live up to their expectations. Esther doesn't know who she wants to be and struggles with her identity. And these older women try to influence her and be role models to her, but Esther has figured out she doesn't want to be anything like these women.
ReplyDelete2. I definitely think this was a liberating moment and feeling for Esther. But I don't think this truly liberated her and "lifted the bell jar". She may feel a little more free. But she is still entrapped within herself and her emotions. Getting birth control is not the way out. She may feel as though she has more control and independence now, but she still has that isolation and depression.
3. I'm not quite sure either, but to me Joan reminds me of Daisy a little. In the sense that they both seem like they're happy and "not crazy" and getting better, but in reality they're unstable and deeply hurting on the inside. It represents the theme of appearance vs. reality. Maybe Joan really couldn't handle herself anymore and couldn't handle appearing "happy" and content with herself.
4. I would either like to actually talk about the significance of the bell jar or Esther's relationship with Doctor Nolan. Doctor Nolan is the only one who really tries to understand Esther and see through Esther's eyes. She's very patient with Esther unlike Esther's mother. She tries to put herself in Esther's shoes but also push Esther to get better.
1. The way that Esther now thinks about what she would do before her treatment, but controls the impulses impresses me. She seems to have mediated the depressive side of her personality that dwells on small things and ignores big things and can now just move on with her life. Of, course, the process took a few months, but it is remarkable how quickly her personality changed. I like how she finally makes decisions, such as getting the diaphragm, instead of passively letting life slip by her.
ReplyDelete2. As I said before, the fact that Esther is making a decision, however “good” it may be, demonstrates her new ability to exercise control over her own life. The contraception itself gives Esther the freedom to sleep with whoever she wants to, but I think the more significant fact is that she made a choice for herself. But, this decision no doubt gives Esther a feeling of freedom since she places such an emphasis on sex. She is starting to become her own woman, unrestricted by the confines of marriage, and that was just a small step on her road.
3. I saw very little wrong with Joan, so the reason as to why she killed herself is a mystery to me. There is no explanation for her quick gain of privileges and then loss of privileges. She, like Esther did in the beginning of the book, did not seem like a crazy person to me. There are probably things wrong with her that we are not meant to know. But, Joan’s suicide will likely be a wake up slap to Esther, and help her reflect on life so that she may wish to live, rather than to kill herself as well.
4. I would want to talk about Esther’s relationships with Doctor Nolan, Joan, and her mother. Doctor Nolan is like the kind, caring parent that her real mother couldn’t be, but yet we get very little lines of her. I think Esther’s trust in Doctor Nolan fills a void that her father left, and think that would be an interesting topic to talk about. Also, Joan as a reflection of Esther, almost like a little sister, would be a compelling topic to pursue because we see Esther from the inside and the outside, and Joan offers us a perspective of how everybody else sees Esther.
1. What really stood out to me about this reading is that Esther is finally become her own being instead of relying on others. She no longer obsesses about all the pressures that she faces in life and instead just focuses on herself. It is nice to finally see what Esther is like when she is not going crazy. I also found her relationship with Joan to be very interesting and kind of sweet in a way. It was really nice how Joan cared for Esther throughout the book, but I agree with Aldo in that I was extremely surprised with Esther's lack of emotion when Joan died. Esther is also really facing her fears and dealing with them. She expresses that she really doesn't like children and that she is scared of having them, so she takes the initiative and gets birth control. It is really nice to see Esther take so much control of her life.
ReplyDelete2. I think that in Esther's case, this is definitely a form of freedom for her. Before Irwin, she seemed to always think about the future (marriage and children) when having any sort of relation with a man. With the birth control, Esther now can do as she pleases and take control of her sex life and relationships. I don't think that this can be defined as complete freedom, but it is definitely a great start to Ester becoming an independent young woman.
3. I am really unsure as to why Joan killed herself. I definitely agree with others in that she was kind of like Daisy from Girl Interrupted. I think her death was meant to show that even those who look and act completely normal can actually have serious problems, which can also be used to describe Esther. Her friends and family didn't really seem to notice that she was having serious issues because she looked fine from the outside and didn't let a lot of people in. But honestly I am not sure why Joan killed herself.
4. Even though this is a bit of an awkward topic, I really think we should talk about the scene and aftermath of the scene with Irwin. I am pretty confused about why Plath put it in her book. I would like to discuss the importance of that scene and what it means to the book as a whole.
1. Esther getting birth control is extremely powerful and, I think, a pretty pivotal moment for her. She is taking charge of what happens to her body and herm mind, much unlike the scene were she's being thrown to the ground or shocked. Esther is stopping the cycle of women just doing what their "supposed" to do and she's owning herself. She is taking a stand, whether people know it or not. I love that getting contraceptives doesn't have to be stamped across her forehead. This is something for her, not for everyone who's watching.
ReplyDelete2. I pretty much answered this in the first question, but yes, I think getting contraceptives definitely gives her freedom. It gives her the freedom of knowing that she made this choice, it was not made for her. It gives her the freedom to have sex when she wants to without the fear of being trapped into a life that she has always known she doesn't want.
3. I think Joan serves the purpose of being Esther to the extreme. Esther could go on to live a "normal" life, but what's great is that we get to see her acknowledge that she's a little different. Joan is a dose of reality.
4. I find the subject of sex to be extremely important to the book. I would like to go further into Esther's way of thinking on it and why it plays such an important role to girls, this time period, etc.
1. A moment that really stuck out to me was when Esther confessed to loving Doctor Nolan: "I liked Doctor Nolan, I loved her, I had given her my trust on a platter and told her everything..."(211). I read this and for the first time actually could imagine Esther emerging from her dark hole. She's actually been able to open up and connect with Doctor Nolan, which can translate to others in her life. I saw this as very optimistic for Esther.
ReplyDelete2. I do think that 'getting fitted' gave Esther a type of freedom. Like many have said, it gave her a sense of independence and lets her diverge from the norm. I think it's a very important step for her because previously she saw everything as black and white, either this or this, no middle ground, no other options or compromise. I think that she's slowly learning that the rules society dictates are not always true. For example, having sex is dirty and irresponsible. Going back to the fig tree analogy, she is now understanding that she can create new options for herself that may not have presented themselves to her before.
3. There's a lot about Joan that we do not know. The fact that she is lesbian is a huge factor, especially in this time period, as others have said. It's possible her parents found out and took it horribly. I think the huge instigator for her suicide, was leaving the hospital, realizing she wasn't ready to go on her own, and then having to return. That process combined with her hectic experience with Esther, as Cam has said, adds up. Esther always comments on Joan's blank stare and loopy attitude, and it seems as though Joan is also hiding from the world. Again, there's too much we do not know.
4. I agree with Molly, I think talking about how Esther/Plath would live in today's world. Would they be just as isolated even though times and attitudes have changed? It bring up another important question as to whether or not they are natural cynics or is it society that made them that way. In other words, in a world (today) where there are more opportunities and options for women, would they still have these nervous break downs? I think that it's very possible they would-- I think that it's they're general outlook on life that's the main problem, not necessarily the societal dynamics of the decade.
1.
ReplyDeleteThe moment that really struck me was when Esther displayed her dislike for children, specifically babies. Disliking such an innocent and helpless creature simply seems inhumane. I think this reaction could have been brought about by her rejection of the societal ideas of motherhood, and that her fate is to get married and have children. Another, I believe, is the lingering signs of her depression, as she demonstrates her strong dislike for the life surrounding her.
2.
Sexual freedom has played a pivotal role in Esther's actions throughout the book, from her date with the simultaneous translator to her ill-fated meeting with the "woman hater". Such an emphasis is put on this aspect of life, sex, by society, even though it is not directly mentioned. Esther is expected to remain pure until she is married, and she feels this pressure exerted by society. Such pressure and expectations contributed to her worsening mental state, and I believe that sexual freedom is an integral part of her eventual recovery. While she still might not be free from the pressures of society, the one she felt the deepest about has now been lifted.
3. Why do you think Joan killed herself? I'm not convinced I even know. But give it a shot.
It is interesting to note that as Esther's condition improves, Joan's worsens. Joan was just like Esther, the perfect society girl up until she crashed. I am very unsure as to why Joan chose to end her life, as we are given very little information concerning insight into her life and thoughts. Much like others have discussed, she reminds me of Daisy from Girl, Interrupted. Perhaps, and I suppose this is going as far out on a limb as I metaphorically can, she represents some internal aspect of Esther, much like Daisy represented Susannah.
4.
I am very curious as to Joan's role in the book, as we only see her very briefly, but she contributes a lot to the story line of the book. As a character that we know very little about, I am curious as to her role in the book.
1.
ReplyDeleteThe moment that really struck me was when Esther displayed her dislike for children, specifically babies. Disliking such an innocent and helpless creature simply seems inhumane. I think this reaction could have been brought about by her rejection of the societal ideas of motherhood, and that her fate is to get married and have children. Another, I believe, is the lingering signs of her depression, as she demonstrates her strong dislike for the life surrounding her.
2.
Sexual freedom has played a pivotal role in Esther's actions throughout the book, from her date with the simultaneous translator to her ill-fated meeting with the "woman hater". Such an emphasis is put on this aspect of life, sex, by society, even though it is not directly mentioned. Esther is expected to remain pure until she is married, and she feels this pressure exerted by society. Such pressure and expectations contributed to her worsening mental state, and I believe that sexual freedom is an integral part of her eventual recovery. While she still might not be free from the pressures of society, the one she felt the deepest about has now been lifted.
3. Why do you think Joan killed herself? I'm not convinced I even know. But give it a shot.
It is interesting to note that as Esther's condition improves, Joan's worsens. Joan was just like Esther, the perfect society girl up until she crashed. I am very unsure as to why Joan chose to end her life, as we are given very little information concerning insight into her life and thoughts. Much like others have discussed, she reminds me of Daisy from Girl, Interrupted. Perhaps, and I suppose this is going as far out on a limb as I metaphorically can, she represents some internal aspect of Esther, much like Daisy represented Susannah.
4.
I am very curious as to Joan's role in the book, as we only see her very briefly, but she contributes a lot to the story line of the book. As a character that we know very little about, I am curious as to her role in the book.
To answer Sohail's question in reference to the difference in Dr. Nolan's and Dr. Greene's ECT:
ReplyDeleteDr. Greene utilizes an old technique that sends the electricity in the form of sine waves through the patient, which results in intense discomfort and extreme convulsions. Dr. Nolan uses a more modern form, known as brief-pulse transmission, which lasts in a much shorter duration and in much less discomfort. As Esther describes it, it has been described as closely resembling drifting off to sleep.
1. As many have said before me, the core surprising part of the reading was the change in Esther over the course of the assigned reading. After her attempted suicide she seemed violently unstable and reluctant to get better, but during this reading she showed independence and a distinct knowledge of what she wanted and how to get it. She made the decision that she didn't want children and acted on it. She wanted to lose her virginity, so she did. For the first time in the book Esther seems capable of making decisions and acting on them for herself. This struck me as the most important change that has occurred in Esther over the course of the book as a whole.
ReplyDelete2. I think that the diaphragm certainly has given her freedom, just in a convoluted way. Rather than grant her freedom based on the fact that she can no longer give her freedom, the action of getting the diaphragm is what set her free. As I discussed above and as has been stated time and time again, this moment is when Esther proves to herself that she has some control over her life as a whole, and that she has the power to make decisions for herself. All through the book she seemed utterly incapable of making decisions or choosing a path, but with this choice she has proven to herself that she has the power to control her life and indirectly gave her what could be referred to as freedom.
3. I was pretty lost at this moment in the reading. I would probably make the argument that there was no particular reason for Joan's suicide. The patients at the asylum all have their own reasons for being there. Joan was clearly put there at least partly for the fact that she was suicidal, which has previously been established. There could be any number of reasons for her to have made the decision to end her own life. Essentially I would say that Joan committed suicide because she no longer wanted to live. There doesn't necessarily have to be a trigger, there is some chance that at this point in her life she simply decided she no longer wanted to be alive and acted on that desire.
4. I would just like to hear everyone's opinions about the book as a whole. It is clear that my particular beliefs regarding the events in the book are not exactly widely accepted and instead I would like to hear the overall beliefs and opinions that accompanied everyone's particular experience with reading The Bell Jar.
1) The most significant part of this reading was not the actions themselves but Esther's thoughts and self-motivation. She doesn't seem to sulk or dwell on her own depression, she forms relationships with the people around her and ventures into the real world. Esther doesn't realize that she is headed in a path that slowly leads to normalcy. Esther has accepted her surroundings and is building a foundation to enter the real world. Because the narration of this novel is so intertwined with her thoughts, we know for a fact she is making progressive steps towards sanity.
ReplyDelete2) In a way, yes, and in a way, no. Yes, in that she can find a certain level of peace of mind in the birth control. Peace of mind is equal to physical health in Esther’s mind. Just like Esther hates rooms that do not have windows , Esther hates the possibility of losing control. The birth control gives her satisfaction in that she can’t control her mind but she can control her body.
3) Joan’s suicide totally caught me off guard. Because the story is told through Esther’s eyes and Joan didn’t even talk to Esther about it before she did it, it doesn’t make much sense. Joan hinted at having feelings for Esther and made it clear that she had contemplated suicide in the past, but I don’t see why she did it in the time that she did. Joan clearly was going through more than she let on, and it will be interesting to see how Esther moves on without her.
4) I am really interested in what led Esther to the state that she is in. We are thrown into her story at the middle instead of the beginning. Esther doesn’t seem to be all that close with her mom and I think it would be interesting to see if this was caused by some event in her life or if she was born with this illness. I also am very interested in how Esther will react to this. If she truly feels the pain of Joan’s death, it will show progress. If she is detached, I think we can confidently say that this story will not end well for Esther
1. The scene in which Dr. Nolan convinced Esther to recieve the shock treatment really stood out to me because it marked the first time in the book where someone really was able to talk directly to Esther instead of down to her or across her. The tenderness that Dr. Nolan exhibits in coaxing her out of the alcove is extraordinary, certainly nothing like anything we have seen from her mother at this point.
ReplyDelete2. I'm not sure that the diaphragm is all it's cracked up to be by Esther. Sure, she is sexually liberated from the concern of having an unwanted child, but she is most definitely not free from the societal stigma of promiscuity; if anything, the diaphragm will only increase that particular awareness. At this point though, she has already made up her mind as to marriage, and I think Esther could care less about that sort of thing. That is the sort of liberation she is referring to.
3. I think that Joan committed suicide because she came to believe that she could never live a fufilling life with the burden of her sexuality on her shoulders. Perhaps Esther showing up at her front door bleeding like she was drove home the point that her activities would never be socially acceptable and she totally lost hope. Joan is certainly an enigma; she states before her death that she is actually thinking of becoming a psychologist.
4. I would like to talk about Esther's recognition of her own mental illness and it's impact on the people around her, or her perception of it. This seems to be an important topic becuase we are just now reaching a stage in the book where she is recovering, slipping out from under the bell jar with it still looming dangerously over her head. Will she fall back under it? What brought her there in the first place?
Sex seemed to be the climax of the story and I found that a little odd. Its almost as if, for Esther, that was going to be the one thing that made her finally right again. When she discovers that she is bleeding and has to go to the emergency room, there is no sense of fear, the only thing she's concerned with is the fact that she's no longer a virgin.
ReplyDeleteEsther looks at children like the devil. She is petrified of them, and of the commitment that they imply. She doesnt look at the love aspect or the biologically satisfying aspect. All Esther is concerned with is being locked into a mommy role where she has no future other than spending days rearing kids and pampering her husband. Sex for Esther is a privilege that bot men and women should appreciate equally. She is so angered by the fact that she cannot sleep around with whomever she pleases for the fear of little Esther-lets running around. Getting birth control finally allows Esther to have that equality.
Life for a lesbian wasnt bright at that point in time. But Joan is definitely an enigma. Maybe it was truly desperation and a complete loss of hope. She didn't have a family for support, and if she were to be released she would most likely end up marrying and being stuck in a marriage where she doesnt even like the sex of her partner.
Post mental illness life for Esther would be an ideal topic to discuss. Her experience at the asylum was one thing, but her re-entrance into the real world is another story all together. I can't picture how she would go back to normal life, or what she would do out in the real world. It would be interesting to see how her dark history plays into her everyday life and how she copes with the aftermath, and all of the other folks that are sure to look at her funny and talk about her behind her back.
1) Something that struck me is how Esther is becoming more and more her own person with her actions and thoughts. I feel like something changed in her surprisingly quickly to allow her all of this confidence in her decisions and all of this newfound peace.
ReplyDelete2) I definitely think this moment is liberating. I feel like it allows Esther the chance to make her own decisions despite what society may think of her. I think that the fact that she is getting herself contraception shows that she is finally taking steps to protect her own interests. It is hard for me to put into words but I feel like this is sort of indicative of Esther protecting her future, assuring that she will have what she wants as opposed to what other people want from her.
3) I have no idea honestly. I feel that, much like Esther's suicide attempt (which I still find hard to succinctly explain), there is not enough that leaks through to the outside of Joan to allow us to understand what it is that's eating her up.
4) Like many other people have mentioned, I think it would be interesting to talk about how Esther may have faired in a modern society. I personally have a fairy loose grasp on how I think she would fit into this time and I think it would be really interesting to hear the ideas the rest of the class may have.
1. The part that really jumped out at me in the reading was Joan’s suicide. Yes, we saw her slowly get a little bit worse, but the nurse and doctors had deemed her fit to be out and about. So why did this happen? Was it because of negligence, or was it just because Joan hid the true extent of her illness? I feel like it may have been a little bit more of both.
ReplyDelete2. I am not exactly sure how to answer this. But I definitely think that this decision, to take contraceptives, does make her free in a sense. Always, she has been burdened by the thought of having to have a family, get rid of her career, and settle down in a family. But, by taking this, not only can she reduce the risk of getting pregnant lest she decide to have sex, but it frees her choices.
3. I have absolutely no idea. She seemed fine to me. Of course, there was that time when the two of them were both still in the hospital when Joan got her walking rights revoked, but she still got let out later. I feel like there is something that we just don’t know that she is hiding. For example, why did she decide to follow Esther’s footsteps in the first place?
4. If I could lead the discussion tomorrow (today), I would want to talk about Joan. Esther and Joan both come from pretty similar backgrounds, both having interacted with Buddy, and didn’t really like him in the end. And they both tried to commit suicide, one because of the other, and the other eventually DOES commit suicide. So, why?
1) one of the things that really stuck out to me Esther's ability to make decisions for herself. We have seen since the beginning of the book that she has not made many decisions for herself, but instead has let society dictate her future, and she was merely being pushed from one situation to another. I see that all of suden she is becoming her own person. Not only in her decisions but her actions and the way she is starting to dictate her life. I really like the new esther because I feel liks I can relate, like she is becoming a women that society understands, and makes her story a lot more comfortable to read.
ReplyDelete2) I think this moment is one of the most hopeful moments in the book. I think it shows that she has her life ahead of her. Like she is not going to end her life, and that she has the opportunity to live a semi-normal life along with the reso of her friends and her family. I think this is a liberating moment because it is the first example in the book that shows Esther taking a step forward and starting her life. This decision is not in line with the ideals of the society at all because sex out of marriage is still looked down upon so her taking this step to buy a diaphragm is a big step in her life and against society.
3) I truly do not know. I cannot even guess. I cannot see past Joan's tough exterior. I feel like this is the same problem that I had with Esther in that I want to know, but I don't know right now.
4)As everyone else has said I think it would be great to talk about how esther would fit in to our modern society. I would like to talk about how people think her mental illness would be looked at differently and how her suicide would be seen. I would like to talk about what would represent her taking her first step, like buying her diaphragm in our society.
1. I agree with Aldo, I really liked how the relationship between Esther and Joan really highlighted some of the differences between them. We've seen that, for the most part, Esther seems like a pretty apathetic person, especially to people on the outside. This is a pretty stark contrast to the boldness of Joan.
ReplyDelete2. I think she is indeed acting as her own woman here. At this period in history, she is still allowed to go out and buy contraception. I'm sure that this is a freedom that many woman would not have had back then. Contraception implies that she is planning on having sex for pleasure, not just to make babibes. This was still pretty tabboo, as we've said in class.
3. I agree with other that have said that Joan was clearly not getting better. I'm not sure there has to be one certain thing that can lead someone to relaspe in deppression. Maybe seeing Esther on the mend was enough to send Joan over the edge.
4. I would like to talk about the difference in the ways that we view mental illness today versus in the time of the novel.
ReplyDelete1) The part that shocked me the most was Esther’s dislike for babies. I, myself, don’t really like newborns all that much but that’s only because they are so fragile. Once a baby is about a month or two old is when they start getting effortlessly cute, but Esther really just goes at it. She doesn’t like children nor babies and they are the most innocent on the planet. It’s a bit ironic because she’s always looking for purity and looks forward to baths to cleanse herself. It was just weird that she described them to negatively and she’s so afraid of them.
2)I’m not so sure Esther is a different person from before getting the diaphragm, but it makes her feel more confident. I sort of compare getting the birth control like getting a tattoo. People don’t know about it unless you make it obvious and once they do you’re just labeled as a person with a tattoo. It depends on the person whether they gain or lose respect for finding out about the tattoo/birth control. I think she was always in her right to engage in a sexual relationship with anyone the only thing the birth control has done is provide security that a man can not. So I wouldn’t say she is free but rather just more confident.
3) I am not sure at all because Joan didn’t let us know much about her. My theory is that in general being gay is hard but more in the 50’s when it was not nearly as acceptable as it is now. Maybe Esther was her only hope and she finally realized that Esther would never turn lesbian for her sake or even care a lot as a friend. Esther is pretty much numb in everyone’s eyes so Joan found no way out other that killing herself. It was shock but I’ve read that sometimes people have not been thinking about their suidical plan for more than 15 minutes before they actually do it.