Well, things are happening at good ol' HLS as the school year comes to an end. Those darn kids are giving their beloved professors gifts and party favors, there's hugs and kisses all around, lessons are learned, and everyone can't wait until next year to do it all again.
The television adaptation of our text which ran for four years never went this far, but, if you remember, or go back to, the clip I posted last week, it was close.The title song by pop rock faves Seals and Crofts set the tone:
"The first years are hard years
Much more than we know.
With good friends to love us
We'll field every row.
Stay open to all things,
Unknown and new.
Then one day, we'll all say,
Hey, look we've come through
The first years."
I'm not sure what the theme song would be for the novel we're about to finish, but it sure isn't this song. For me, it's terrifying book in many ways. Isabella asked in class today, "Why would anyone go through what we see go in the book, even for $165,000?" And Jimmy as he has before asked the essential question,"Is the end worth the price one pays?" The book certainly points out that many willingly accept the price the book illustrates. It also gives us a main character who is rapidly now figuring out how maybe to change the rules that everyone else have accepted as necessary for achieving the goal: passing. "'Just grade point,'" Anderson tells Hart about why he studies Kingsfield's movement from afar. He doesn't share the love-hate relationship Hart has with the imperious teacher nor the way Hart sees the building as some living thing, "like an animal"; Anderson doesn't feel the passions Hart does. He simply feels the need for an A.
This said:
1. Your reaction to Kevin's suicide attempt? We've seen it coming for awhile now: either he was going to kill someone else, or kill himself, the book has implied for a long while now. But this moment still is shocking, still horrifying. So your reaction? Along with this, could you say how this makes you see Kevin: a pathetic loser, a guy who couldn't cut it and got what he deserved—or something else? And what made him try to kill himself—was it simply or only his obvious failures at the law school, or were there other factors involved? Please don't simply agree or disagree with others, though you can: try to add to our understanding of this moment of the novel with your answer, okay?
2. "'I'll think I'll pass'" (210). Your reaction and the meaning of this moment to you?
3. Finally. One of the points I have on the board concerning our discussion of what the book is about—and a question that we have to always refer back to—is what is the school teaching these students? The book clearly says it's teaching them more than law. It's teaching them as lawyers, as perhaps Harvard educated lawyers, how they should see the world: how they should see their position in the world: how they should conduct themselves in the world. No better place where we see this, though there have been others, than the class's reaction to Hart's refusal to answer Kingsfield's question. Your reaction to the class's reaction? And can a line be drawn from their reaction—their behavior—to the classroom itself, to specifically how Kingsfield has taught them?
Again, be willing to ask each other questions: and everyone come back once and respond to a classmates' comment. By the way, I really enjoyed class today, both classes: lots of good thinking going on.
1. Kevin's suicide attempt, to me, is the prime example of innocence lost in this novel. Just as George Wilson from The Great Gatsby was killed, Kevin slowly becomes prey to the corruption or obsession in this Law school. The pressure, the cutthroat, tense students, the worries of the baby, are all too much for Kevin. To me, I never saw Kevin as a loser in the first place. I saw him as someone who is not fit to go to this school, simple as that. I see him as a guy who is so caught up in the things he cannot manage to achieve, he fails to accomplish the things he could achieve. The immense pressure makes me feel sorry for Kevin. This moment in the novel though, is really interesting for me. Kevin is on the brink of shooting, and Osborn switches to Hart, who is dashing to the apartment to get to Kevin's birthday party. He does not know whats about to happen, but that urgency to reach Kevin's apartment signifies Hart cares about Kevin. Unlike Asheley who is angry at kevin for thinking of leaving her with the baby. It is a terrible thing to do, but she attacks him somehow, knocking him out, in order to stop the suicide. I get a feeling that she does not care about Kevin at all.
ReplyDelete2. This is the moment Hart finally comes to peace with Law school. He defies the teacher he has deified so greatly, and stands up to him in spite of all his effort to please him previously. Kingsfield is taken aback by his response, and I really enjoyed the way Hart took him by surprise. This moment felt incredibly freeing to me;Hart no longer stresses about being called on, or practices the response in his head before answering. He is calm, and simply says no.
3. The students of Harvard Law school signed up for their college education. They payed the fee, they applied, taking any necessary measures to assure they get in. ONce they are in, they are repeatedly drilled, each day, to become accustomed to the way Kingsfield conducts his class. They accept his sadism and power complex as fact, and never speak up about it or retaliate. The moment Hart refuses to answer Kingsfield's question, the wall that all the students, even Hart, have built, the wall they accepted as fact, came crumbling down. It was shocking at first. Many students, like the one who pushes Hart after class, still cannot accept what Hart has done. But what Hart has done, is normal. It is not as if he has punched Kingsfield, or cursed him out. But Kingsfield, and the whole school, creates an environment in which not answering a question would be as severe as punching the professor. These students are put through hell, no doubt, but they are also taught to accept that hell, without question. Part of being a lawyer, even an adult, is to question things, and to disagree. They may think that they are breaking some implicit contract with the school, but it is never said that they cannot question the teacher. Hart refusing the question brings all of that out in the open.
I don't think that Ashley doesn't care about Kevin. I think that she's just as lost as Kevin is. They're all really young still, yet they're married with a baby on the way. What is she supposed to do? If Kevin had succeeded, what would she do? Her life would be in shambles. There is life outside of law school. If Kevin can manage to pick himself up after all of this, they can still have a life together. I think what she did was good for both of them. I think people should have the right to choose whether they live or not, but maybe not in a moment like that: when everything that's been piling up all year finally just breaks through.
DeleteI agree with Sohail, Asheley does in fact care about Kevin. But, to me, Asheley is as lost as Kevin but she is also really focused on herself. She's focused on throwing the perfect party, to be the perfect hostess to her lawyer husband. Shes obsessed with being Mrs. Kevin Brooks. When Hart finds Kevin on the floor bleeding, all she says is "I'm going to have a baby" I think she just focuses on herself and doesn't see that Kevin has gone off the deep end and that he wont be able to create the life that Asheley has already gotten used to living. And I think that Hart just feels sorry for Kevin. I think Hart thinks that Kevin started off on the wrong foot and deserves as much of a chance as the rest of the students. I think Hart is just being human in that moment, caring about Kevin.
Delete1. As you said the suicide was a long time coming. For me, the before and after is what surprised me the most. When Kevin took a step back and realized that he was actually going crazy, aiming a gun outside of the window at a random couple walking by. And then he starts laughing and falling and to me that whole scene seemed a bit maniacal and twisted. Then he starts crying and I just feel like he’s gone so far off the deep end that he doesn’t even know just how far gone he is. Then with Asheley just saying that he can’t die, she’s having a baby, its just weird that she doesn’t realize that her husband has lost it. Kevin’s sudden mood swings, the way he just decides to load a gun and shoot himself without thinking of how much money was invested into his education, without thinking about Asheley or the baby just shows how much the pressure has consumed him. He was supposed to make Law Review and provide for his family and impress his father-in-law (haha) but all he thinks about is school and he just hits rock bottom hard. I think Kevin had all of the right intentions, he came into law school with some pressure on his shoulders already but he was as bright eyed and bushy tailed as every other student there, he just didn’t bother learning how to absorb the pressure and use it as fire under his butt like the rest of the students did. I don’t think he deserves to die and I’m glad he Asheley walked in when she did I just think that Kevin is one of the kids that isn’t cut out for law school and he refused to accept that it wasn’t the place for him.
ReplyDelete2. I think Hart really took to heart what Susan said prior to the classroom scene when she said “the law school got you without even trying” (168), and “you see, you can do things, if you try. You’ve just got to get angry enough”(168). I think Hart finally realizes that he doesn’t have to sit in fear every day during Kingsfields class; he doesn’t have to be subjected to the nervous anticipation of being called on. He stands up to Kingsfield, he demands respect and acknowledgement that he knows his stuff, that he is prepared and Kingsfield shouldn’t be wasting his time or his breath asking Hart questions when you have other kids that are completely clueless. He tries to level himself with Kingsfield and I think Kingsfield sees that and sees that his job is complete, the contract is up, and Hart has seen the bigger picture.
3. I think what they learn is that they will always be surrounded by unspoken and unrecognized competition. They all seem a little dumbfounded when Hart refuses to answer, even though the answer is right in front of him. They, like Kingsfield, don’t like how Hart is trying to defy the central power in the classroom. In the classroom the students all think of themselves as if they are on the same team, writing down each other’s answers, learning from each other. Kingsfield is their coach, telling them the information and asking the students to apply it to the game. Hart makes a move that no one gains anything from, and automatically everyone dubs him as the weakest link. When the red haired guy pushes him and says, “You were lucky, smart ass, he should have let you have it. I guess he felt sorry for you” (172), they eliminate Hart as a player. He’s useless to them and the other students pounce at the opportunity to impress Kingsfield and show them that they are the ones who will rise to the occasion. They are the ones who will succeed. It’s all just a game; I think that’s the major lesson in this class and even this entire book.
I totally agree with the way you use the phrase Kevin hits rock bottom. Kevin doesn't know how to take the pressure and use it in his favor. To me it seems like Kevin hits that rock bottom, but he then never gets back on his feet. He is stuck, defeated by the pressure of doing so well. When he is told he failed the practice exams I think we first see Kevin break down. I feel as though Kevin went into law school expecting the best and that he wouldn't fail anything. Kevin wouldn't fail because he couldn't fail. I liked how you point out he was suppose to impress his father-in-law and laughed at this. I find it a really sad moment and think you defined it really well Tanja, the only thing I would ask for is do you feel any sadness or pity for this character and why?
DeleteWhen you talked about the respect that Hart demands in your second answer it really reminded me of the section we talked about today in class. Hart wonders why the judges on the wall won't respect him, "Why did they look up at him that way? He was related to the room too- it didn't belong solely to the old judges and Kingsfield. After all, he was almost the living extension of the old judges, He carried in his mind the cases they had written. Where the hell would the judges be without him? Who would hang their pictures if there were no law students." This is also a crucial moment in the book for Hart. He becomes annoyed. This moment along with the moment you talked about with Susan and Ford fighting on the beach result in Hart's refusal to answer Kingsfield's question.
Delete1. Ever since that scene where he was pointing the gun out of the widow I’ve been waiting for him to try and actually shoot someone or himself. Everything has been going wrong for Kevin; it’s all been leading up to the moment when he would really break. He fails his practice exams, he can’t answer questions in class, he can’t work on his outline, he has tons of pressure on him to succeed, exams are coming up, everybody is dropping out of the study group, and finally nobody comes to his party. He doesn’t feel like he can talk to Ashley about any of it. Not only is everything going wrong, but he also feels completely alone. In a situation like that, it must’ve been too tough to see any possible good outcome in his life. I thought it was interesting how Osborn made it seem like Kevin had actually succeeded in killing himself. For a second I thought Ashley had gone crazy too and either wouldn’t accept or was trying to cover up that Kevin was dead. I don’t see him as a pathetic loser. He’s obviously a smart guy (all of these people are); he just couldn’t cope with this amount of stress. Maybe it would have been different if he hadn’t been married, if he didn’t have a baby on the way, if his education wasn’t being paid for by his rich wife’s husband, if he had jut one person to talk to.
ReplyDelete2. I think that in this moment, Hart finally takes Susan’s advice. It isn’t his mission in life to look good to Kingsfield. He’s the first person to not cower in fear and/or jump to attention when Kingfield glances his way. He actually makes Kingsfield laugh. This reminds me of the italicized vignette on the very first page of the book. Kingsfield calls a student to the front of the class, gives him a dime and says, “Go call you’re mother, and tell her you’ll never be a lawyer”(2). The student gets to the door and shouts, “You’re a son of a bitch Kingsfield.” Then, Kingsfield lets him stay. Hart is the only one who can really think for himself.
3. I think the class’s reaction differentiates Hart from everyone else. It interesting that out protagonist is the only one who has it figured out. He doesn’t have to be Kingsfield’s bitch. He has the right to not answer a question. He reminds me somewhat of Moss. Moss is the picture of laid back. He lives in that house with his rapey roommates. He’s completely relaxed. He does not fit the image that one may conjure when one thinks of a person on the Harvard Law Review. Moss has everything figured out. He is completely in control. Hart is on his way to becoming this type of person while the rest of the class still strives to backstab and recite case facts while kneeling at Kingsfield’s feet.
"Kingsfield's bitch." I like that, Sohail.
Delete1. Once Kevin loses it in that moment when he’s laughing, then crying, then weirdly Zen, that’s the point at which I had to pull myself away and just say: this guy’s going crazy over law school. However, even though this moment was a long time coming, I didn’t see it playing out the way it did. I thought he would’ve waited until right before/during studying for finals and I also really didn’t expect Asheley to have the ability or anger or even attentiveness to stop him. I thought that it would be the last we see of Kevin and that’s it. I don’t think that any single person “gets what they deserve” when it comes to suicide. Yeah, sure, maybe he wasn’t cut out for law school and that makes him not succeed there, but this wasn’t the only way out, even for the amount of pressure Kevin was under. I really agree with Cam about Kevin’s failure to achieve getting in the way of his future success. Just like so many other kids in law school, there is such a focus on winning and getting that A that they can’t even look ahead to having a life outside of law school other than law. Also: yes, Asheley may have had selfish reasons for stopping Kevin; she’s carrying his baby and would probably have to go back to living with her parents if Kevin had succeeded. But, on the subject of moral contracts as we always go back to, as his wife; is she really going to stand by and allow him to throw everything: past, present, and future away because he’s under so much pressure in law school? He’s under so much pressure that, yes, he does rape that girl he meets at the party, and he’s pointing guns out the window and going crazy, but maybe he drop out of law school and find another profession in which he won’t be driven crazy by pressure and work. I think that to stop someone from committing suicide, you have to somewhat care about them, or at least be unable to calmly entertain the thought of a life without them.
ReplyDelete2. I think that in this moment: Hart’s had enough of law school. He’s seen what it’s done to all of his friends, especially Kevin, and he’s through with letting it get the best of him. I agree with everyone else that he also put into play what Susan said, in that when he “gets angry enough” or fed up with law school, he sees no reason to play Kingsfield’s little games anymore.
3. I made the argument in class that Harvard is teaching the students law and should be teaching the difference between justice and injustice. That’s an aspect of law that the book centers on especially when it comes to moral injustices. All of these students find it incredibly unfair that Kingsfield just let Hart off the hook without any argument, because if that were them, they wouldn’t have been let off the hook. They would’ve been somewhat beaten down by his stares and questions, but they would have let themselves be damaged by that. Hart has of course been beaten up a bit by Kingsfield, but he’s learned more than anyone else has in the course because of it and because he learned to take it in stride by the end. Maybe it was the insight of Susan, and maybe it was his own doing.
Molly’s point about how Asheley had the moral responsibility, due to their marriage, to stop Kevin from committing suicide is something I didn’t originally see. But I think its 100% true. When they got married, they made a series of agreements on what they would give to one another. Asheley owes it to Kevin to save him in his moment of desperation. I disagree with Molly in that I don’t think it was a selfish move at all. If anyone is any bit selfish at all, I would say Kevin is being selfish in that moment by trying to break the contract he had with his wife over the stress of law school.
Delete(2) I'm not sure that Hart is really fed up with law school based on this scene. I think he is done with letting it ruin his life, but this is a new chapter for Hart as a law student. He is still loving law school, I think even more so now, because he finally has some sort of power in the classroom.
DeleteJenny, while yes, Kevin's attempt at suicide is very selfish, I think that Asheley is somewhat selfish about this as well and she is truly scared of having to go through the pregnancy and raising a child alone, which is a completely reasonable thing to be frightened of and a completely good reason (among many others)nto stop her husband from committing suicide.
DeleteZoe, yes! I think what I meant is more that he's fed up with it letting him rule his life. I do agree that this moment gives him a little more confidence in law school as well, and changes his view.
1. Kevin's attempted suicide is really sad. It just goes back to the question that we've been asking over and over again: How is this worth it? Kevin has barely even done the work and he can't even take it. How is Hart doing it? How can he stand to exhaust himself to the degree that he does. We've talked about how a big difference between Hart and the other students is that he has the passion and the drive to be there. He has a genuine interest in the law. Kevin however was put into a life that either he didn't want or wasn't ready for. He's the only one with a first name and the only one (that we know of) to fail in this book. He's not mature enough. He's 23 or so years old with a baby on the way and headed down a career path that he doesn't want. And all for what? He wants that image and prestige. I don't get the sense that he comes from money or else I think succeeding in this environment would be much more important to him, such as Bell. This is a life he's not accustomed to you and it doesn't matter to him. He's in our position. He doesn't see the point of it. Unfortunately he takes it to an extreme level which makes me wonder why he doesn't see any other options in his life. Why is suicide the only logical thing for him to do?
ReplyDelete2. I think Hart finally understands all of Susan's advice about not letting it get the best of him and standing up to Kingsfield. I also think that taking her class was the key to passing Kingsfield's class. We've talked about how Kingsfield's class is a long-term test. Finally Hart stops cowering in Kingsfield's presence and he realizes that he's lost himself in his obsession with "contracts." I think Kingsfield was just waiting for a student to grow up and be a lawyer, to stand strong and not whither, and this is what Hart did. Susan has been giving him the advice to succeed all along and he assumed it to be detrimental to his standings at HLS.
3. The other students haven't figured out that it's not all about "grade point." You don't have to become an empty shell of yourself to succeed here at HLS or in the real world. You can use Kingsfield's tactics of not being a push over. The students aren't realizing that Kingsfield humiliates them for being weak, he's not weakening them. He's strengthening them if anything. If you can stand up to Kingsfield and prove yourself, you're going to be fine. It's more about learning to delegate and strengthening your character than being able to recite the facts of a case.
I agree with Amanda about the "the students aren't realizing that Kingsfield humiliates them for being weak, he's not weakening them. He's strengthening them if anything." I think Hart is the only who has kind of figured this out, which is why he has the courage to stand up to Kingsfield and refuse to answer the question. I think Harvard Law school is about becoming a confident and strong lawyer. It is not for the weak hearted like Kevin. You have to have drive and passion to succeed at HLS or anywhere.
DeleteI concur with Erin here, Amanda—to a degree. Kingsfield does seem to pick on the weaker students—hence by this point in the novel he's not picking on Hart, and in fact, I'd argue, depends on Hart. Hart will always have the answer. And the challenge he presents them, ultimately, is are you going to stand up to me? Ultimately, Hart is strengthened by Kingsfield (with some help from Susan and the memory of Kevin). Is this deliberate on Kingsfield's part? We never know. But he certainly seems to respect Hart's rebellion. This ties in nicely too to what Sohail writes when he brings up the student who calls Kingsfield an SOB. Which, in the film, is Hart.
DeleteOne of the things that ties into this is how Susan told Hart that, although he is the smartest in the class, he is just like the other students. He is a dime a dozen robot, incapable of reflecting on why it is that he puts up with Kingsfield. The fact that he stood up to Kingsfield is what truly sets him apart from the others.
Delete1. It was pretty sad and depressing when Kevin attempted to commit suicide. I felt so sorry for him. It's his birthday and no one showed up to his party and he attempted to commit suicide. But I definitely saw it coming. Kevin has cracked. He broke down. Before all the stress really started for Kevin, he didn't seem like a very confident person. He seemed insecure and anxious from the beginning, but the pressure and stress started to build and kept pushing him down. Kevin had so much pressure on him from Asheley, Asheley's father, Harvard Law School, and himself. Kevin couldn't handle it. Kevin was never strong hearted enough to handle it. Kevin always seemed weak hearted even from the beginning. I definitely do pity him, but I also saw this coming. Kevin doesn't have the courage or strength to succeed in Harvard Law School.
ReplyDelete2. I'm a little unsure about this moment, because I like the fact that someone finally talks back to Hartfield, but also Hart just seems more arrogant when he's the one who snaps back. Hart has the audacity to talk back and sass Kingsfield. Hart just seems arrogant and cocky. I think it takes some guts and confidence to talk back to a professor, especially the professor who all the students are scared of. It's like talking back to Paul Hayward. Hart rejected Kingsfield. "It was done. He had actually refused to answer a question." However, I also like the fact that someone did finally talk back to Kingsfield. I respect Kingsfield and his methods, but I like that someone gave him a little taste of his own medicine. Kingsfield was caught off guard. Kingfield actaully looked the slightest bit weak for a second. He was rejected. "'You don't have anything to say?' Kingsfield said, for an instant puzzled.
3. I am little unsure about this question, but I think one thing the school teaches them is to be independent and work hard. They can't rely on each other. They have to work hard independently, which I think goes along with the whole competition of Harvard Law School. For example, the study group was supposed to work together, but in the end, they all left the study group. It was ever man for themselves. I thought the class's reaction was kind of funny. They all got excited when Hart messed up, because they could then make themselves look like the next best student. The students look up to Hart and idolize him, so when he didn't know the answer, the students had their big chance to impress Kingsfield. "Immediately, hands went up around the classroom. Sweaty hot arms were thrown up as students saw in Hart's refusal the chance to prove themselves before Kingsfield."
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Delete3. (sorry this is just a continuation/add on) I think HLS wants to build up these students courage and confidence. I think they want their students to become someone like Hart. Even though Hart is arrogant, a lot of lawyers are. To be a good lawyer, you can't be insecure. Hart has confidence in himself. I think HLS wants to build that confidence in their students as lawyers and as human beings.
Delete1. Like many before me, I saw something like this occurring ever since Ford's dream. I was half expecting for Kevin to commit suicide, yet when the moment came, I was taken by surprise. The first thing I felt was pity and sadness toward Kevin because he was a pathetic character who just couldn't get anything right. Also, he is the only one with the family, who had to look out for someone else. Kevin is the character who lost his mind and tried to end his life not thinking of Ashley or the baby. He knows that it is going to be very hard for him to pass so he gives in to the pressure and tries to take the easy way out of life (easy meaning that is a sequence of obstacles that eventually end in death).
ReplyDelete2. At first I was a little shocked but then I went back to the way Hart was acting in previous chapters and realize that this seem like a good way for him to state that he has change. I was very proud of him for finally stand up like that and realizing that there is more to life than waiting to answer a question. I think that maybe that is what Kingsfield wanted. In my opinion, Kingsfield was surprise that somebody has finally stood up to him but that is what being a lawyer is about, standing up and saying what your opinion is even if nobody expects it. I agree with Sohail that Hart is the first one to cower in fear when Kingsfield looks at him but I find it more impressing that it was Hart himself. He was, like Susan said, "the kind the law school wants" (96) because he will study his ass off and pass without having time to think of themselves as persons. Hart has learn to say no to Kingsfield.
3. In my opinion, there is an implicit contract that the students will listen to Kingsfield when he talks and attempt an answer or stay quiet if they do not know the answer. Hart, in my opinion, made a contact with himself to answer Kingsfield and show him how competent he was. I don't believe that he violated this second contract with himself, but the class thinks otherwise. They think that Hart try to show off and prove that he was smarter than Kingsfield by trying to be a "smart-ass"(172). They're, in fact, still under Kingsfield's control while Hart has prove that he no longer belongs to Kingsfield by telling him he has passed. Hart is the smartest in the class not only because he knows the contracts but because he knows his place.
Aldo makes a good point about Kevin: "he is the only one with the family, who had to look out for someone else." This only enforces the belief that you cannot get through Harvard Law School if you are not self-absorbed in everything law. But Hart begins to prove this theory wrong: you can care for people while working your ass off. In fact, it's the only thing that will keep you sane.
DeleteI definitely agree with both Anna and Aldo here, especially with the fact that those students who fall into the pit of self-despair when maybe all they think about is law. Law in the sense of "winning law school" as we've said so many times in class. And Kevin is the prime example. Law school eats him alive to the point where he cannot handle it anymore, and there was probably a point that he passed where he should've taken a step back for his own sanity and his family's. I also agree with the fact that family or those close ones in someone's life are what keep them sane, especially with how much Susan helps Hart, which was definitely shown by the scene we talked about in question 2. My question is: does Susan help Hart through being someone he cares about, or posing new ideas as Kingsfield's daughter, or is it both? I'm not really sure, but I think it's a little bit of both.
Delete1. The suicide attempt is a moment that really "puts the cherry on top" for this novel. It brings us back to the biggest question that we have been faced with: Is it worth it? We have argued back and forth in class since the first day on whether or not the psychological wounds of the students are payed off by future rewards, and this seems to answer that clearly. Is finishing law school more important than life itself? My answer is simply no. At the beginning of the novel, there was a quote that said something along the lines of "for every good school, there are one hundred boys who took their lives" and the real implications of this statement have only now become truly evident. Some people did honestly believe that law school is more important than life. What I think is most interesting is how this plays into the theme of the American dream. I think that while Osborne is writing about law school, he is also making a statement about America as a whole. What kind of society believes that suicide in the name of education (which, in the end, is mostly a means of earning money in the future) is justifiable? The American dream for many people is to be rich, but do the means really justify the ends? I think that this book was one of the first successful pieces of literature to ask this question and demand an answer. In the end, people decided that no, law school is not more important than life, which is what brought about the eradication of teacher like Kingsfield. Simply put, life, including all the liberties and rights it includes, is more important than law school.
ReplyDelete2. Throughout this novel, Hart has refrained from asking himself one question: why does he feel such an urge to please Kingsfield? While there are many reasons why a student would want to please Kingsfield, none of them are applicable to Hart. Hart doesn't care about good grades, making a lot of money, law review, or any of the reasons why the other students want to please Kingsfield. It seems that the only thing driving Hart towards pleasing Kingsfield is, redundantly, his need to please Kingsfield. He obsesses over Kingsfield, practically going crazy with delusions of some strange mystical force that connected the two of them. The only person who is capable of showing him the vanity of his obsession was Susan. She is the only person who asked him why he wanted to please Kingsfield, and it seems that the only reason he played into Kingsfield's game was fear. Without fear, Kingsfield is nothing more than a teacher. Hart's realization of this is what allowed him to step up for himself in class, the thing which Susan wanted him to do all along.
3. Whether it is purposeful or accidental, Kingsfield is teaching these kids about how to view not just law, but their entire lives. Kingsfield's class has both altered how the students treat each other and how they treat themselves. Practically, he is teaching the kids to be aggressive lawyers, taking a legal argument and firing it back, but at the same time they learn to be aggressive people, raping and attacking others. They learn a system of dominance and obedience. Of course, when Hart disobeys this system it completely blows everyone back. People are stunned, awe struck, and even angry.
"The vanity of his obsessions." Excellent phrase, Jake. It really does capture what's Hart's preoccupation with Kingsfield is about.
Delete1. I have similar thoughts on Kevin as Tanja. I think that Kevin's suicide attempt was very selfish. However, throughout the chapter I truly understood how the stress was too much to live with. Kevin was in a dark hole with no one to turn to. I think that Osborne is empasizing that fact that life isn't worth living without true companions. Everyone in this novel is searching for someone to rely on, someone that they can lean on, but each and every person is too self absorbed to do anything for other people. This is what really sets Hart apart is these past chapters. Kevin isn't weaker than everyone else, he's just reached that breaking point sooner. Just as Susan said, "You're just like Kevin, only it's going to take you a little longer to cave in. Maybe you'll wait until you're forty."
ReplyDelete2. This is such a fantastic moment in the book. Hart gains respect from us readers and Kingsfield in this moment. Even though Hart deserves praise for standing up to Kingsfield, I think it's important to see that he didn't do this on his own. Without Kevin's suicide attempt and Susan's ass wooping, he would have answered the question. No doubt about it. That's the disturbing part: it's so easy to conform to the system of the classroom, no matter how smart you may be.
3. The first thing that comes to my mind is self reliance. Everyone is on their own. Especially in Kingsfield's classroom (exemplified by the students' reactions). Everything has become a competition in and out of class. Competing to be the best, to show that they don't need anyone else. The key thing at this moment, is that Hart shows that Kingsfield is nothing without the fear of the students (thanks, Jake). Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that Kingsfield is teaching one thing (you don't need to rely on anyone) and proving the opposite (you have no influence without people to follow). You have nothing without people beside you.
Anna, I agree with you in that Kevin was very much alone, and that he had no one to turn to, and that many of these people are very self absorbed and miss the people that are in fact there for them, which is maybe what happened with Kevin. However I do not agree with the idea that is was selfish. I have to ask, why you think that is selfish? I see it as heartbreaking that a man with a wife and a baby on the way could not find any happiness in that. The fact that he was basing all of his self worth on the grades he got in an over priced law school. The fact that he was basing his happiness on the way a bunch of self absorbed pretentious assholes thought of him, and treated him, is so depressing. I do not think it was selfish I think he was lost and turned to his last resort.
Delete1. I think Kevin was at a point where he had zero power to change his fate. And he knew he was not going to make it out the year and he had just wasted a year of his life trying to succeed at something almost impossible. At Harvard Law School, there is a such a premium on power that a student gets from succeeding. Kevin has failed in every single way. No amount of help can get him out. He is completely powerless and I think the way he takes advantage of the young woman from the dance and even his suicide attempt were instances where he felt he had control. He was completely dominant in the scene with the girl from the dance and in that moment, there was no one who was better than him, more powerful than him. With his attempted suicide, he was in complete control of his fate and he was calling the shots. I think the way Harvard Law School puts power on such a high pedestal and makes it such an important component of success is what leads Kevin (and the guy at Moss’ house and Bell and the students who stepped on Ford’s papers and essentially everyone else) to feel the need to gain power in desperate and terrible ways.
ReplyDelete2. I saw this moment as a huge departure for Hart. He goes from being the student who had a panic attack when Kingsfield asked him a question to the student who is able to complete disregard Kingsfield and his questions. Hart has idolized Kingsfield for the majority of the book. He was desperate to see Kingsfield’s notes and was let down when he saw they were “just notes” and “even [looked] like” his. In this moment, I think that Hart feels he is no longer Kingsfield’s subordinate and that they are on similar levels. I think Hart finally realizes that he is extremely intelligent and that he belongs to be in this class. He does not need to stress himself out to the point of insanity, a path that he was moving towards earlier in the novel.
3. As Susan says repeatedly, the law students become robots over time. The professors teach them and the students answer their questions. It is all very formulaic. The second Hart breaks that formula by refusing to answer a question, they all are thrown completely off guard. And for it come from the best student in class is even more disconcerting to them because he should be the most robotic of them all. I find this very one-dimensional and the way Hart steps out of line a little bit adds more the student-teacher relationship because Hart’s questioning the teacher and adds more depth to the discussion Kingsfield and the students are taking part in.
I never really thought about Kevin's suicide as a way of him holding power over himself that he didn't before. I find that very interesting because I think that Kevin is both powerful and powerless. He is powerful at that time because he finally has control over his fate in a way he didn't have from HLS, but also he is quite powerless in that he thinks that ending his own life is the only way out.
Delete1. I don't think that Kevin is pathetic or got what he deserved. I feel like everyone has their own way of responding to stress and failure. For Kevin, who had stress at home with Asheley, stress from Asheley's father, stress from the study group, and stress from Kingsfield and the law school, it all got to be way too much and this was the only way out for him. In many ways, Kevin has pressure coming at him from all angles. Kevin's attempted suicide is proof that not everyone is happy to be at a highly-praised university, and that for some, the stress and the pain is not worth it, which answers our fundamental question. For Kevin, it simply is not worth it. This brought me back to the italicized print on page 13 that says "What really happens has been happening for ever so long. People kill themselves...Sometimes they blow their brains out. Behind every good college are a hundred boys who killed themselves."
ReplyDelete2. I love this scene. This is the key moment in the novel where Hart refuses to be oppressed any further by Kingsfield. In class today, we talked about how us as the readers always want to find ways to not put the blame on HLS and Kingsfield. I think this is a very important moment because Kingsfield is helping everyone realize that it is not ok to be treated this way. He really put Kingsfield in his place and I love that. I also like how while putting Kingsfield in his place, he isn't demeaning him or getting payback. He is simply stating that he doesn't want to answer his question because his hand wasn't raised.
3. I love the reaction of the students. This moment is so great because I feel like the entire class has been used to the set seating chart where the ones who will not talk or get called in sit in the back while the talkers sit in the front. I feel like since Hart refused to answer the question, it kind of threw the class equilibrium out of wack and everyone, including Kingsfield, was shocked and confused. Also, it is quite sad that all of the students are so used to being under Kingsfield's radistic rule that they begin to even turn on Hart as he stands up for both himself and the class. This is shown when Hart describes that "a few students glanced nervously at Hart, as if to say: Don't upset us, don't make a mistake." I think that Kingsfield is teaching his students to be very aggressive with both their law studies and their lives. He is constantly pushing them to feel weak. As Jenny said in class today, this entire novel is a never-ending power struggle, as shown in the scene with the beer belly violating a girl, the scene where Kevin rapes someone, and in class every day. Kingsfield is teaching his students that if you are weak, you must succumb to those smarter than you and if you are smart and powerful, exert that power over everyone else.
1. As horrifying as the scene may be, it made me realize that Kevin is just a normal, nice guy, but cast aside by his peers for his relative academic uselessness. It is said that Kevin was well liked and did well in his old school, but all of a sudden he is thrown into a hostile and incredibly competitive environment, where he has no support besides Ashley, who he ignores. I think that Kevin wasn't made for Harvard law school, like the majority of us aren't, but he is obviously a hard worker that just can't grasp the complicated intricacies of law school. It drives him crazy that he works so hard, but gains nothing. Throughout his
ReplyDeletelife he was most likely told, just as we are, that hard work yields results, which gives you a good job and a happy life. But law school is a completely different world, so when he fails, it seems as if his whole entire life before was a big lie, and there is no way out of the lie except for suicide.
2. It seems to me that Kingsfield is happy with Hart's assertion of independence. The law school can teach every robot a thousand cases, but only Hart learned to actually think for himself. In this scene Hart shows that he has more than one choice in a situation that had previously only allowed for one. Throughout Kingsfield's class there has always been one question, multiple wrong answers, and a correct answer appearing. Computers may seem smart, but they only do what they're told to do. Hart's classmates can only answer a question, and only Hart has the human capability of not doing what he is told to do.
3. The class's reaction only proves my previous point made. They only think that Hart can't answer the question, rather than that he doesn't want to answer the question. Hart could have answered the question, but it's all about the point that he is making to Kingsfield. The class has changed the heart of it's students, turning them against each other, Kingsfield has taught them to be aggressive and competitive, just as they should in the real world as lawyers, but they cannot turn in off, take a step back,
and actually think for a while about what they're doing. Before Hart's refusal, all they are doing is mindlessly writing down whatever Kingsfield is saying, and they are just as mindless
when it comes to the interactions and behaviors outside of the grade point.
Alex, I really like your analogy about computers here. It ties in nicely with what Jenny wrote. Indeed, Susan has been urging Hart to not be a robot, to not think without remembering he has a "heart." And we know that Anderson is "the robot" to both, ironically, Bell and Kevin. Anderson will make Law Review: he has on his own written three(!) outlines. But he has no heart, no passion, no love—he is a human robot, a computer as you put it.
Delete1. Kevin's suicide attempt, while extremely shocking, did not surprise me. I knew he wouldn't do anything to Kingsfield or another character, he just didn't have it in him. I think saying he had it coming, that he was pathetic or that it was all because of the law school is quite unfair to Kevin. I think what Osborn is telling us in this moment, this whole novel, isn't what students do under the pressure, it's what the pressure does to the students. In this passage all I could think about is that Harvard is a sort of petri dish. All of the students are crammed in this tight container being scrutinized by powers much, much bigger than themselves. In a way, we are the voyeurs, Osborn being the microscope. We see how these students react to their confinement and pressure. Kevin cannot handle it. The sense of helplessness, emasculation and downright fear go to him. He was the bacteria in the petri dish, the all consuming, decaying bacteria.
ReplyDelete2. Hart grew a pair and stood up for himself, finally. After that (very very odd) moment, fighting Susan, she made him realize that he did have power, he could do what he wanted. He managed to push back the fear that had crippled him and his peers for months. Before this moment, in class he felt weak, powerless, at Kaingsfield's mercy. He realized, however, that he did have power. All it took was that one sentence and he had that power he was lacking for months and months. I think this was ultimately Kingsfield's final lesson. On e can see it either way, as an "up yours" to Kingsfield (I think Hart thought that was what he was doing), or as the final, complete submission to Kingsfield. Kingsfield is teaching them to be lawyers, that is his job. A lawyer must defend his/herself and others. This is the first moment in the entire novel where someone sticks up for themselves. I think Kingsfield wanted someone to do this all along. He gave Hart the sense of rebellion when in reality, he simply solidified his position in the system.
3. I think Harvard teaches the students how to be men. It openly refers to them as boys throughout the novel. These boys come into HLS their first year, one one level expecting it to be difficult, but on another level not really knowing what they're getting themselves into. These boys are put through hell. They are terrified, scrutinized, judged and treated like inconsequential infants. Yet at the end of the year, everyone's true nature has come to light. Kevin was not prepared to enter the world of men. He was thrown into this evolutionary place and on top of that had to deal with adult issues such as marriage and pregnancy. Harvard showed us that Kevin did not have the makings to become its idea of a "true man". Hart, on the other hand, exemplifies that progression of boy to man. He comes into his first year naive and submissive and leaves aggressive and ready for life's hardships. Yes, Harvard is teaching them to become lawyers, but it teaches them so much more than that. It teaches them how to deal with adversities, how to balance a crazy life, how to handle pressure and, most of all, how to survive.
I really like what you say in #2, Zoe. I'm not convinced that Kingsfield wanted someone to do what Hart did—but it's possible. Which indeed makes him a hell of a teacher. In #3 I would suggest you think about, specifically, the students who immediately gang up on Hart. They make me think of hyenas attacking a wounded animal. They want to see Hart go down. This is a less positive picture than the one you give. Bell says when Hart says they all should go to Kevin's b-day party because they are in the same study group, "Who cares about the study group?" Imagine our class frothing as it attempts to take you down a notch the moment you buck the class system. Is this a good thing?
Delete1. Kevin's attempted suicide has been the saddest moment in the book so far. Kevin is the character that nothing goes his way, nothing has worked out right. Kevin is seen as the most human character. Kevin is the one with the family and a child coming, but he is failing law school. We see all the best students referred to as robots. The best students are machines created to beat the law school and achieve an A. Kevin couldn't make the cut. The pressure grew to be to much and he pulled out his gun. His surprise party was also stressful. Leading up to the day of his party Kevin realized he had to tell Ashley of his failure. Kevin is the most depressing character because since he won't succeed in law school he won't be able to support his family. Harvard Law has broken him.
ReplyDelete2. Hart has beaten Kingsfield. Hart knows Kingsfield so well that it is Hart's turn to screw with Kingsfield's mind. When Hart refuses to answer the question Kingsfield stumbles and is shocked. I see this as Hart's way of conquering the class. Hart knows he will pass with flying colors and this is the way he shows it. Law school did not break him. He won't be the one stuck in the past telling stories about Kingsfield after this. Disturbing the even flow of the class room shows Hart's mastery over the material and a challenge to the teacher.I thought this was an intense moment in the book symbolizing Hart's triumph in Law school.
3. The class reaction was shock. This turned quickly into an opportunity to beat down Hart and rise to become better than him. I was the better students as a pack of wild beasts waiting quietly for one of their own to fall so they could all pounce. The school and Kingsfield has taught them aggression and the ability to never back down. We see this even at the end of the chapter when the well dressed and ugly boy with red hair insulted Hart and physically abused him for getting the question wrong. The school has created harsh and deadly lone wolves.
1. I thought Kevin's attempted suicide scene was really sad. Kevin has really hit the wall, and he feels the only way out is to kill himself. I think Kevin realizes that he doesn't have to keep dealing with the stress of law school. In this moment, Kevin knows that he won't get anything out of law school. He is lonely, and rapidly loosing his mind. He has no friends, and it is clear that he is not actually ready to be a husband and a dad. To me Kevin is a very sympathetic character in this scene. He feels that all the work he has put into law school has only ruined his life, and now he is trapped with no where else to go. He is too scared to really accept and deal with the situation, so he turns to suicide.
ReplyDelete2. I really liked this moment in the book. I agree that Hart finally took Susan's advice, and that he is rebelling against law school. However, at the same time I feel like this is only the next step for Hart as a law student. Hart is finally accepting that he is the best in the class. He knows he is good enough, and has a strong enough relationship with Kingsfield that he can say no to him. Hart is simultaneously defying Kingsfield and becoming the person Kingsfield wants him to be. Hart grew a pair, which what he needed to do to become a better lawyer, but it is also what Susan told him to do to save himself.
3. This scene seems very "every man for himself" to me. Even though its the end of the year, there is no sense of unity between the students. It is all about coming out on top, specifically above everyone else. Like Tanja said, there is a constant competition between the kids. Kingsfield taught them to be the best, but also to stay within the boundaries of his classroom, which is why they are so mad that Hart got away with what he said.
I have never thought about the aspect of Kevin that he is preparing to be a dad. I find this really interesting, and now that I think about it more I also see it as a reason for his stress and for what makes him go crazy. Being a dad is a huge responsibility, and while Asheley's dad is rich, it is on Kevin to support his family. It is just another thing that adds to the importance of him doing well in law school, applies a little more pressure, as if he didn't have enough already.
Delete1. Kevin's suicide attempt is awful. He does not deserve the treatment that people give him. Kevin cannot catch a break anywhere. Kingsfield picks on Kevin in class even after Kevin has given up. He failed his practice exams and he can't talk to his wife about anything. The party was his breaking point. He didn't know where his life would go anymore. Asheley now knows that nobody likes Kevin and her life isn't as perfect as she thought. I do not think that Kevin deserved what he got or that he is pathetic. Everything in his life at this point is going wrong. Asheley doesn't understand what Kevin is going through at all. She has had such a sheltered life that she can't have any empathy for Kevin. When Asheley and Hart talk about Kevin's attempted suicide, she says, " 'He tried to kill himself. I stopped it. I had to, I'm having a baby and he tried to kill himself.'" Asheley only thinks of herself. All she can think of is herself and the baby. I understand her concerns, but she should think about Kevin as well. Asheley doesn't understand what to do in this situation because of her sheltered life. Nobody understands Kevin and he became tired of living with the pressure that everyone placed on him. This is not pathetic it is tragic.
ReplyDelete2. Hart's experiences in the past few chapters have changed his attitude completely. His talks with Susan and Kevin shaped this transformation inside of Hart. He realized that the law school and Kingsfield are not perfect. Passing on a question is Hart's form of rebellion. He wasn't prepared to answer the question and Hart wasn't going to let Kingsfield intimidate him. Also earlier in the book when Hart overslept he had a panic attack trying to get to class and then goes to Susan's apartment where he demands breakfast. In the reading from tonight he misses his classes for the day and takes a break. He even offers to make breakfast for Susan. Hart is becoming a stronger person and he is beginning to challenge everything that is around him
3.The class takes Hart's refusal to answer the question as a free pass for them to impress Kingsfield. People are waiting in line to take Hart's place as the best contract law student. They don't want the system to change. These students want to win a spot on the law review and play by the law schools rules to get to the end result they desire. If that means having a teacher yell at them for four years they will do it. It is like the the time when everyone walked all over Ford's papers. They don't care about anyone else but themselves. The students are bettering their chances in this world by getting dirt all over Ford's carefully written notes.Anderson won't let Ford and Hart have his extra outlines, he tells Ford, "'Look, Ford,' Anderson said, 'I like you. I really do. You were nice to get me into the group and all that, even if it didn't work out well. I'm willing to give you the outline I promised, but not the extra outlines. It wouldn't help my chances. You might do better than me.'" This school is teaching its students to fight at all costs for themselves. It is okay to let somebody else down or disregard them as a person, as long as it benefits you in the long run. These students are ready to use any means necessary to get to the top.
I really liked your take on Hart's evolution as he realizes that Kingsfield and he are even and that he has no right to intimidate him. He has more compassion and empathy, and we see this in his visit to Susan. I disagree with you, however, on the message that Harvard is sending it's students. I think that Harvard is preaching the importance of power. The students experience what it is like to be pushed around, and they all envy Kingsfield for the power that he has. Hart realizes that Kingsfield doesn't have any more power than any of the students. I believe that was the point of Kingsfield's class.
Delete1. While we did see the suicide attempt coming for a while, it was still a shock. I mean, sure the book set that up with that little vignette in the beginning about how so many kids commit suicide. We saw Kevin slowly deteriorate. His attempts to gain prestige in the class soon turned into desperation to even stay afloat in the torrential currents of Harvard Law. I was shocked. My reaction was literally, “Holy crap,” the first time I read that scene. I don’t feel like Kevin is a loser. He made it into Harvard Law, so he is obviously really smart. But, he didn’t get any support. He was cast aside, and desperate. He was pushed to the edge of desperation by the very people who were supposed to be teaching him and helping him learn what he had to in order to succeed as a lawyer.
ReplyDelete2. I greatly enjoyed this moment. This was the first time that we have ever heard of or seen where someone stands up to Kingsfield and his sadistic ways and just refuses to answer. Susan was telling Hart earlier how they were all robots, and how she had seen countless Law students go by her father. This represented, to me, Hart’s freedom from Kingsfield’s tyranny and from his own obsession.
3. Everyone has been taught to try to be the best, to let the other person get kicked down by Kingsfield or other students and to try to get to the top. This atmosphere is so competitive. The other students are trying to show Hart up, just like Hart tried. They are trying to be the best. Also, I feel like everyone is jealous or angry that Hart DIDN’T get called out. And I wonder about that too. I wonder if Kingsfield was amused at his audacity. Everyone else stuttered, or got lost, or tried to answer. But Hart REFUSED, which no one has done before. I wonder If Kingsfield was waiting for that.
Kevin's suicide attempt doesn't surprise me in the least. We have obviously seen Kevin building up to this moment for quite sometime. It's obvious that Kevin feels trapped and has nowhere to go.
ReplyDeleteBut I think that on top of the law school, one of the reasons for Kevin's attempt comes from something as simple as not having any friends. No one shows up to his birthday party, and he finally cracks. It's almost as if the glass is at the brim, and this little realization that he doesn't really have friends, or more importantly that he is alone, fills the glass that is Kevin and overflows. Kevin realizes that his work life, his life of academics, is ruined, but he doesn't know about the social aspect of his life because there simply hasn't been any time for a social aspect. And now with his surprise birthday party, Kevin realizes that the social aspect of his life is ruined or non-existent as well, and it is too much for him to handle. While I see Kevin as a little bit pathetic for the whole thing in that his efforts from the beginning were poor, I do have a lot of sympathy for him. When you think about being in Kevin's position at the end of the novel, you really can't think of any way out. You are, as Kevin is, trapped. Kevin attempts to take the one escape route out, and I can't blame for that. While Kevin's suicide attempt was shocking, I think the most surprising thing about this scene is how Asheley hurts Kevin in order to stop him. This is the first time that we see Asheley actually be real, with Kevin and with herself, about what is going on and what the real problems are in Kevin's life. It is the first time that Asheley ever takes any kind of initiative, and she does something as drastic as injuring her husband to stop his suicide attempt. The whole Asheley aspect of the scene comes out of nowhere for me.
I love this scene. I think Hart finally gets it at this moment. I think that Kingsfield has wanted Hart, or somebody, to do this all year. I see it as part of his teaching method, he wants his students to learn to be independent, to stand up for themselves and be their own person amidst the masses of Harvard Law school. It is what Susan teaches Hart as well, and I think he finally understands that that is what he must do. And without a doubt, I read this as Kingsfield congratulating Hart for finally understanding what it is he has been trying to teach him. He gives him a sharp little laugh, then he completely lets him off the hook. And unlike other times when Kingsfield is hard to read, Hart is not freaking out, because I think Hart knows he has finally figured it out. If he has not figured out that that this is specifically what Kingsfield wants him to learn, he has figured out that no matter what Kingsfield thinks, that's what he has to do and that's what right to do. After reading this scene, all doubts that Hart might not succeed or go Krazy like Kevin (see what I did there) went away. He still has the brains and the drive to succeed in Kingsfield's class I think, but at this moment he finally lets his obsession with Kingsfield go. He does not, as Susan puts it, let Harvard have him. He is his own human being, which puts a lot more confidence in me that he will succeed throughout Harvard Law and then throughout the rest of his life.
The rest of the class simply does not get what Hart understands. There are the students who laugh and studiously wait for Hart to still give the answer, and the kids who take the chance to pounce on Hart's inabilities. I think the students who studiously wait for Hart's answer have not at all picked up on any other sort of lesson that Kingsfield might be trying to teach them besides the material. I see the kids who jump to strive off of Hart's refusal as naive and arrogant. The students who jump on Hart after his refusal have learned from Kingsfield that the way to success is to be an ass; to always be in competition to be the best and to put down the competition in the process. But, this is not the main thing that Kingfield is teaching. What Kingsfield is teaching, and what Hart understands, is to be independent, to be your own human being amidst the law. So, the class simply does not get what it is Kingsfield is truly trying to teach them.
ReplyDeleteI find this interpretation extremely interesting. I think I agree with Sam that Hart may be the only one in the class who truly understands Kingsfield, and I think that this perhaps is the reason why Kingsfield leaves Hart alone and moves on to the next topic. Perhaps he knows that Hart is prepared, that he could answer the question but chose not to. I have a feeling that this question is mostly semantic, and an answer to it could not be found in the text, but it is intriguing to consider.
DeleteLaw School has ultimately made Kevin into a different person. Even Ashley doesn't know him as the man she married; she stops him with a cold indifference that is worlds away from the tenderness she showed towards him at the beginning of the novel. Kevin has been twisted by the pressure and competition at Harvard more than he knows. If there was ever a prime example of the phrase "in over his head," this is a situation for it. Although the attempted suicide was very heavily foreshadowed, I thought that Kevin would drop out and leave before it came to that. Instead, he hung on until the very end, trying to fabricate some semblance of success for himself. When he wakes up at night to point his rifle out of the window and stops himself, nearly going insane, he eventually sits back down and starts going over his outline. This is reminiscent of when Hart almost dies on the ice with Susan and starts thinking about contracts. The difference is Hart gets over it, Kevin just sinks deeper. I particularly liked Graham's take on this: "Kevin doesn't know how to take the pressure and use it in his favor."
ReplyDeleteAnd speaking of Hart getting over things, he finally manages to get the better of Kingsfield in his class. Interestingly, he has been trying to do this academically all term: when he moves into the "upper echelon," when he writes the paper and stays up for four days creating a Bell-sized stack of paper. But when he does catch up with Kingsfield, it's by rebelling against him. There are a number of things about this moment that pique the reader's interest: Hart knows the case, and has the summary neatly taped inside his book. He's caught off guard initially, but perfectly capable of giving a good answer. Kingsfield also expects him to give the answer. When he doesn't, he almost can't believe that it's Hart speaking. The action of refusal seems almost spontaneous, sparked by his fatigue and the oppressive heat inside the classroom. And then, Kingsfield just shrugs it off! This is certainly a circle from the beginning of the novel, when Hart was berated for no knowing the assignment. Maybe Kingsfield is eager to get out of the classroom too.
The ruggedly individualistic atmosphere of HLS seems like it could have been ripped from the pages of Atlas Shrugged, and this is evident as the students prepare for exams. Anderson leaves the group out in the cold, and, calculating as ever, reveals that he has prepared his own outlines all along. Why did he stay in the group? It almost seems like he took an interest in watching them crash and burn. To paraphrase Tolstoy: "All happy study groups are alike, all unhappy study groups are unhappy in different ways." As we've discussed in class, the sole purpose of HLS is to teach students the law and how to think like lawyers. Perhaps the lack of other commitments leads to this kind of atmosphere.
1) Kevin's death, even though I called it from day one, was disturbing and depressing. The ignorance of Asheley and the vacancy of the party makes this scene so horrible. Like Hart, our instinct is to run away. I don't think of Kevin as pathetic, I think of his story as a tragedy. He had so much potential, and the incredible amounts of pressure led him to see no way out other than taking his own life. It wasn't the Law School alone that drove him to such extremes. Other than Asheley, Kevin has no real relationship with anyone in life. The empty party drives that fact into his already broken down mind. Law School has consumed Kevin, and he feels like he has no life outside of Harvard. Therefore, when he begins to fail in school, he feels that he is failing in life. His failure blinds him from the happiness in his near future with a baby on the way. Kevin's story is can only be described as a tragedy.
ReplyDelete2) I loved this moment in the book. Throughout the story we've heard about how awestruck Hart is at the magnificence of Kingsfield and how Hart is desperately trying to pick Kingsfield's brain. Kingsfield makes the class feel inferior, and the students are all affected by his intimidation. Hart makes the most important realization of his time at Harvard as he stands at the lectern of the empty classroom. He feels nothing. He feels no power or superiority that he expected to feel from standing in Kingsfield's shoes. Kingsfield has programmed the students to believe in their inferiority, and Hart now believes that he and Kingsfield are equal. When asked a question, Hart challenges Kingsfield, calling his bluff. Kingsfield is shocked by this, and decides not to retaliate. This is Hart's most interesting discovery at Harvard, both in the classroom and out.
3) Harvard has taught the student's to feel empowered. Kingsfield has preyed on the students all year, and the two examples where Kingsfield stops his attack is when a student questions his authority and thus empowering himself. This knowledge is what makes Hart distinct. This is what makes him a solid candidate for the Law Review. Kingsfield is trying to teach them that power is what gives you authority, but in order for the students to learn, they have to experience it for themselves. Both as lawyers and as people, Kingsfield is teaching the students that power is the tool to success, not the 800 page outlines and the details of law cases. The students leave his classroom understanding the importance of living empowered lives.
I completely agree with your point on Kevin. I agree that the reasons he committed suicide expands beyond the grades he received. The core of why I point this out is your phrase, "Kevin has no real relationship with anyone in life." This describes my opinion on Kevin perfectly. The real issue that Kevin had was the distinct lack of real interaction with ust about anyone, including his wife.
DeleteI was not surprised by this scene at all. From the beginning when we read the little paragraph about how behind each school there are students have killed themselves, it was obvious that someone was either going to kill themselves or attempt it. I always saw it being Kevin too. His personality and the way he kept on getting easily angry and yelling at Ford and how in the classroom he could never pull himself together enough to even answer a question, which I think made him think of himself as a failure. I also saw it being Kevin from the easiness in which he was using the gun the first time we see him trying to shoot at the cars outside his window. Because I always thought it was going to be him, I constantly felt bad for Kevin, and the way his "friends" treated him and the way he thought of himself. He never thought much of himself and u began to pity him from the beginning and especially after this I feel really bad for him. He put himself through this horribly stressful school with mean and self centered guys, for what, a suicide attempt, maybe a degree but like toombs he will not have the grades. This scene did not change my feelings toward him because I have always felt bad for him, starting from the little paragraph about the suicide rates at school.
ReplyDelete2.I agree with what a lot of people have already said, that when hart FInally stands up to Kingsfield, I think Kingsfield is a little taken aback, but at the same time I think he is happy that finally someone was courageous and ballsy enough to take a stand.I think this is one of the first times we see Hart take in criticism and not be so stubborn, He knows that everyone else in this room wants to please Kingsfield, and so does he, but they are all just letting him steam roll them and just tear them down. they take it and show no emotion, like SUsan said they are robots, but Hart does not want to be a Robot, and he still wants to please Kingsfield but I think he is starting to realize he is treating the students like this because they are letting them. they are not showing any guts or any anger, which I believe is what Kingsfield is trying to get to. He wants a reaction and the only time he will stop being a bully to his students is when they say something, and Hart is starting to realize he needs to be the one that starts this.
3.I feel like the students want him to get in trouble and they want him to feel the wrath o Kingsfield because he did take a stand. They want him to suffer and be pushed down because they all are fighting for his spot, He is the one to beat and this would be the best way to bring him down. Im sure they are all angry too that Kingsfield doesn't ream him like they though he would and that he is getting away with something most of them could only dream of.
1. I can't say I was entirely surprised. Ever since the beginning of the novel Kevin has been falling further and further out of control. After his realization that he failed all of his practice exams he seemed to lose all will. He began to spend his time aiming a rifle out the window. Only in the later section of the novel does Kevin even realize that this is abnormal, and when he did, he broke down. Everything about Kevin's behavior from the beginning points to his being an extremely sad and painfully alone (even with Ashley). The most blatant example of his is Kevin's choice to cheat on Ashley, and essentially rape "the girl." Everything Kevin does seems to lead up to the sad and inevitable occasion of Kevin's attempted suicide. Honestly this makes Kevin seem like any other human being. He's a sad character, but in reality he just wasn't made for law school. In terms of my personal stance on suicide, he is weak. That, or he has become weak after law school. His actions were selfish even beyond his actions after the party he attends a few chapters before. No, I don't view him as a joke or a failure, I just view him as sad, broken and weak. He was so alone, so alienated, and under so much pressure, that he simply broke. He gave up. Everything he experienced while at law school led up to the depressing ending to Kevin's presence in this novel.
ReplyDelete2. Finally, FINALLY Hart took Susan's words to heart (pun intended). Finally Hart understands that he doesn't have to be utterly and completely submissive to Kingsfield, and he is his own person. He realizes that he can go through law school on his own power and doesn't need Kingsfield's recognition and aid. In this last moment he redeemed himself in my mind. Watching Kingsfield's reaction only served to endear Hart to me. For the first time Kingsfield was thrown off. Hart actually managed to revolt against the control that Kingsfield holds over the classroom, and became more impressive as a person.
3. Harvard Law School has drilled a worship-like respect for the teachers, and a gladiatorial competitive nature into all of their students. This is proven in it's entirety by the student who "punishes" Hart for being insolent in class. The ugly red-haired student challenges Hart for not respecting Kingsfield, as if Kingsfield cares or needs a student's help to challenge Hart. Over the course of the book, among the study group, in classes, etc, we see an intense competitive nature that shows itself between students, and this is manifested by the society that is Harvard Law. The teachers breed such a high stress environment that it is impossible for the students to not butt heads. All in all Harvard Law School seems to teach students that life is a competition.
I didn't think he would do it. There had been so many instances where he had played with the gun but not actually had the guts to pull the trigger. The way Osborn writes about it is much more subtle this time, when he talks about taking out the bullets. I knew something was terribly wrong when Asheley tried to keep Hart out, and I was surprised to see that Kevin was still alive at that point. In some ways I feel sorry for Kevin because he does everything he is supposed to do, he's getting a law degree, he's married, there a kid on the way. Except he cannot cope with the difficulties. I feel like he's weak. He has no backbone, he's not only lost hope, but also determination, and thats because he lost his drive. It's been mentioned that Kingsfield is a good teacher because he gets across to the students, but I think he broke Kevin. Maybe it was not only Kingsfield, but the other teachers as well, who made Kevin question his motives. The struggle and pressure was not worth it for him.
ReplyDeleteFinally Hart sees sense in the world. Or rather sees the senselessness in the world. He finally realizes that Kingsfield is a human, that his is just like any other place. If Kingsfield can do whatever he wants to do, then why can't Hart. It's at this moment that Hart stops deifying Kingsfield and starts thinking like a true lawyer. In many instances Kingsfield does not seem opposed to kids talking out of turn, but all of the students are so frightened that they create their own sort of implicit classroom contract, or code of conduct, that they are absolutely shocked when Hart stands up as a real person and not just as law student, seat 259. And Susan definitely helps him come to this understanding. Honestly, I just wanted to give Hart a high-five.
Harvard Law School teaches students how to deal with hell. It aims to turn students against each other for the betterment of the society. The students in Kingsfields class are like selfish vultures, too scared to do the work themselves and eager to get credit. And in a way I think they reflect the current American desire to have your cake and eat it too. People want get results and without the work. I think Hart is on an entirely different lever here, he's better than that, people want his scraps, because he was able to take control of his humiliation. I sony think Kingsfield could have humiliated him, and the other students find that completely unfair. They just wish they had been able to do that first.
I cannot help but dislike Kevin. He has not worked for anything he has in the book, his father in law pays for his education, gave him the gun which Kevin doesn’t really like because he doesn’t hunt, and has an organized future with Ashley, who’s pregnant. Kevin has all these things without having to put have put any effort in. He doesn’t have to put a lot of effort into him and Ashley’s relationship for it to work out and he never had to work for the money to pay for law school. Yet, given all these things, all Kevin does is complain about them, feel bad for himself, when really if he doesn’t want them he could refuse them and save himself a lot of pain and self-pity. His constant call for attention and plea for help with the outlines shows his weak character and that he does not have what it takes emotionally and psychologically to be in law school. I think the pressure behind him doing well in law school and all the things he had which he didn’t want but didn’t refuse, drove him to attempt suicide. He is such a weak character that when I was reading about it I did not think Kevin would have the courage to kill himself.
ReplyDeleteReading this moment in the book changed my mood, instead of being nervous for Hart and being concerned about what was going to happen next, I felt relaxed. Hart had finally realized and calmed down, he was going to pass, his hard work was going to pay off. I think in this moment and when he declines to answer Kingsfield question is when we see that Hart has learned what Kingsfield wanted to teach the students. Although it takes Kingsfield by surprise, because it’s not frequent, I think Kingsfield is satisfied just as much as Hart is.
I think the law school tries to teach these students to act with a sense of power in the world. HLS teaches them not only the materials and facts to help them become lawyers, but also the dominating attitude which they should have to lead a serious business life like that. I think HLS wants the world to see the kind of strong, powerful students which they are able to cultivate in their prestigious school; they want people to see what it takes to make it through a school like that and how you turn out as a person. Like Hart described, when he was in his contracts classroom in the dark, the curved benches the students sit on look a sleeping beast that would spring up any minute. That is because the students are a crazy, unstable large group of people who need to learn how to conduct themselves (through law school) and the ones who don’t do not make it. HLS, Kingsfield and all the other professors, are trying to tame the students and train mentally them, but it’s a scary process, because, not all of them make it sanely. Like Hart has done by the point where he refuses to answer Kingsfiled’s question, to excel in this environment one needs confidence, courage, curiosity, determination, and ANY kind of driving motivation. I understood the class’ reaction, because I can think back to times when a similar situation occurred in one of my classes and at the time everyone does feel that it’s unfair for the student to not have suffered and been humiliated. However, if that student does care more about the class and put more effort into it than anyone else maybe he has the right to do what Hart did.
I feel extremely sorry for Kevin. He didn't have what it took be be successful in Law school, and I think its very sad. He truly tried to do well, but in the end he failed. I also feel sorry for Kevin because he wasted a whole year in the hell-bound place called Harvard Law school, and the only thing he learned from it is that the world is cruel, and even crueler to those not naturally gifted. I do, however, feel that it was extremely selfish of Kevin to try and kill himself. Even if Law School is so stressful that it makes you cry, he has responsibilities greater than merely doing well in school. He has a responsibility to Asheley and shouldn't have slept with that girl from the mixer, he has a responsibility to Hart to at least try and finish the work he started, and most of all, he has a responsibility to his unborn baby that Asheley is carrying. Kevin shouldn't have tried to kill himself, because it would bring greater pain to the people who love him, than Law School did to Kevin.
ReplyDeleteI couldn't believe this moment! I literally had my mind blown at this point. I couldn't believe that Hart the "best student in class" refused to answer a question from his deity(Kingsfield. I was really happy that Hart had finally rebelled against the society, Harvard Law school, but also appalled because now Kingsfield will no longer like him as much. I feel that Hart is going to end up doing something else extremely stupid by the end of the book.
I also couldn't believe the reactions of the other students! They're such douche bags! Hart decides to stop letting Kingsfield fuck with him, and the students treat him like trash. He gives the other students a chance to shine, and they bash him into the ground for it. Its not Hart's fault that Kingsfield decided to deprive the other students from glory, the students should be happy that Hart "the prodigy" gave them a chance at all.
I do not see Kevin as a loser, I just see him as someone who was unable to handle HLS. I think that I could tell from the beginning that it would end up being too much for him although I did not imagine his suicide would end up the way it did. I do not know why but I thought it would be a quiet thing, much like him pretending to shoot the cars out his window at night. I thought it would all build up at a point and he would just calmly finally decide to blow his brains out. And I do not think that it was just law school that ended up killing him, I think it was the combination of that mental abuse along with his relationship (which did not seem to be going super well considering the fact that she would try to kiss him and he would get angry at her for interrupting him in his work). Kevin does not seem like the kind of guy that would cope well with stress of any kind but I think that the way everything seemed to build up at once (law school and the baby) was just too much for him to take. So no, I don’t think he is a loser.
ReplyDeleteI absolutely love this moment. It reminds me quite a lot of that excerpt in the beginning of the book where Kingsfield tells the boy to leave class and call his parents. I feel like this is truly what HLS is trying to teach the students. It’s trying to teach them how to stand up to people who seem to hold all the power. It is teaching them to do what they feel
I think that this is the moment that HLS is truly teaching it's students to prepare for. The fear that they feel while in the presence of their teachers becomes more and more comfortable simply because of its persistence and finally they have become comfortable enough to do exactly what they want. They will not be intimidated by other lawyers or the judge or anything else they face in their future professions and they are finally prepared to take on the world without fear.
i totally thought the suicide attempt was successful and that Kevin had actually shot himself. I was really surprised at the fact Kevin was insane enough to kill himself on his birthday and with his wife on the other side of a wall. In my opinion all the pressure from school, his father in law and competition with other students drove him to feel like a loser. I think he is a loser because he let himself become one. He could have turned his attitude around and used it as motivation but he didn't. I also thought as I was reading that Hart was rushing to help Ashley out because somehow he had been informed of Kevin's dumb action. Then I remembered about the birthday party. Then when Ashley answers and he hears panting I totally thought Ashley was in so much shock and anger that she just let Kevin lie on the ground with his wounds. I was totally hoping someone would aid Kevin fast. But then once it was clear she prevented him from shooting himself I agreed with he motives. Kevin can not do this to himself or others he made a commitment to his wife through marriage and must be there for her and his child that is on the way. He would only makes things worse by killing himself and he would devastate Ashley and make her feel terrible. She would maybe feel guilt for not being able to help her husband or cheering him up, and all that along with the pain and the child.
ReplyDeleteI was also surprise at Hart's attitude towards Kingsfield, but Kingsfield reaction was even more surprising the way he started sweating and stumbled. He stumbled because he could not believe his best student had in a way humiliated him by refusing to answer. He was also surprised because he was confident and relying that Hart would gladly answer. I was totally surprised at the fact that he just moved on and did not know what to do with Hart.
1) Whenever I hear of any suicide story the first feelings I get are empathy and sympathy. I know the reason people attempt at suicide is because they are extremely unhappy with their lives and think so low of themselves. So for Kevin, of course I feel bad for him and all of them. I think I can personally relate to him though, so I feel especially empathetic towards him. I guess the feeling of impotence can really drive someone to the extremes. I didn’t really see it coming because he was always aiming the gun at someone else, but it seems very plausible he’d want to escape this law school hell. Kevin needed a tutor throughout the semester not AFTER failing his practice exams, and he didn’t look for one. I do conclude to say he is a complete coward for not taking the “oh-so-big” risk in opening up to his wife or his study group. He didn’t let anyone know how lost he felt and therefore got left behind more and more by the minute. It seems he never took the chance to pick himself back up from where he dropped his brain along with his knowledge. I think he just felt as a failure all over, and the duty of becoming a father didn’t help but rather weighed even heavier.
ReplyDelete2) When Hart finally decides to make a choice that is not what he thinks Kingsfield wants I think is the moment when he breaks through the illusion that failing at what Kingsfield wants is failing in general. Hart has been a butt-kissing suck up the whole book and now he finally doesn’t give in to Kingsfield and absolutely nothing happened to him. Of course there were the jealous fools that snickered and laughed but if anything happened, Hart just proved himself wrong. And relating to The Great Gatsby, I think this is the point in the book where someone breaks a cycle. As soon as Hart refused to answer he gave people the courage to raise their hands. This is something extraordinary, but at the same time very human and I think this is what many people are afraid of being. Once someone sees that the top student in the class has a normal side that makes “mistakes” it makes things at a certain comfort level on which they can act freely. So without much thought, many raised their hands to prove they could confidently shoot down Hart.
3) I remember going on a youth retreat a few months ago and one of the activities they made us jump as high as we could and make a mark on a wall with a marker. The next task was to put on a book bag with a sugar sack inside and do the same thing. To our surprise we found out we could all jump higher with the book bag on. I think this is more or less what this school is teaching here. it provides infinite material on which to push oneself on. Many challenges to take on. Of course it is up to the student whether they want to make their money worth while or not, but even the competition and inspiration comes along with it. The school perhaps tries to expand their knowledge as much humanly possibly, more than they could ever imagine. So obviously, every student imagines this school will be hard, but they all think the danger statistics apply to others except for themselves. I think Law School is a test on how committed and devoted one is to their education.