"And the holocaust was complete" (170).
It all comes to a tragic end—or maybe a totally ridiculous end—as Wilson tracks down Gatsby, kills him in his swimming pool, then turns the gun on himself. How are we supposed to feel about this? Nick goes from "I disliked him so much...that I didn't find it necessary to tell him he was wrong" [about anyone seeing his car] (151) to "They're a rotten crowd...You're worth the whole damn bunch put together." And again, Nick reiterates how he "disapproved of [Gatsby] from beginning to end" but still felt compelled to write about him as a heroic figure who was "exempt"(6) from the contempt he had for all the others in this world. If Nick himself cannot seem to get his feelings in consistent order about Gatsby, so how are we supposed to think about the man in his "gorgeous pink rag of a suit"(162)? This, of course, will be our conversation for the remainder of the week, tied in with the connection between Gatsby's dreams and The American Dream. But first:
1. "He had intended, probably, to take what he could and go—but now he found that he had committed himself to the following of a grail" (156 or 149). Grail? Daisy has become his grail? What does this mean? And how does this help explain his mad, obsessive pursuit of this (my words) truly ordinary girl?
2. "God sees everything," repeated Wilson.
"That's an advertisement," Michaelis assured him. (167 or 160).
We've not talked about the eyes of T.J. Eckleburg, other than as a reminded of the lack of vision the characters have (Gatsby seeing Daisy as a grail, as a stairway to heaven, for example). But here nearing the end of the novel, Fitzgerald finally addresses this bizarre feature in the landscape of the book. Is Wilson simply being insane here—the incoherent ramblings of a deranged husband? Or does he have a point—does he "see" something that others, including the readers, have missed? Is Fitzgerald messing with us or is he telling us something essential and profound about this world? What do you think of Wilson's observation? What is Fitzgerald saying with this?
Write a couple hundred words. Finish the novel, if you haven't already, for Thursday. There will be a quiz on the end of the book on Thursday, and the paper assignment for the book. See you tomorrow.
1. The story of the grail is a crazed and delusional pursuit of a material item that is unobtainable. Daisy has become his grail, is Fitzgerald saying that it has turned into an insane chase that has no real end, and that Gatsby will be unsatisfied with. As John says, it is a mad obsessive pursuit, because it is no longer about getting the girl, it is finishing what you started, and Gatsby is going to do anything to get it.
ReplyDelete2. I think that Wilson has hit the meaning of this "advertisement" on the head. There is no god in the Valley of the Ashes, but T.J. Eckleburg is omnipotent, and is looking out over the Valley, Wilson says in the book, "'God sees everything'". I think the valley is not the only thing God is looking over. It is the WHOLE valley of Ashes. The eggs. New York, all the corruption and moral vacancy accumulated together, with Eckleburg looming over, with those lazy, faded blue eyes. There is no God in this place, but God is watching. This description really tied everything together for me. It casts it in a pessimistic light, but all the events that take place prior now make sense.
1. In Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, Indiana's father (Gatsby) obsesses over the Holy Grail (Daisy), a holy quest to find the greatest treasure (American Dream). The grail promises eternal life (lots of money), and many chase after it, only to utterly fail. It is the belief in an abstract myth that drives many men to find the grail, as it is a vision that drives Indiana's father to find it. He believed that it was his destiny, and so he chases it with obsessive madness. But at the end of the movie, the grail was simply the plainest one. Gatsby (and Indiana's father) lust for the chase of the dream rather than the dream itself, but once it is over, the movie ends.
ReplyDelete2. Before this chapter I saw no particular significance in the advertisement, but I can see how he can be a symbol of God. After reading the first description of the advertisement in the second chapter, I noticed Eckleburg's eyes are "dimmed a little by many paintless days under the sun and rain, brood on over the solemn ground", so if the advertisement represents God, then this symbolizes God's passing in the eyes of humans. I think Wilson is taking anything as a sign as justification for what he is about to do, so he might as well say that God said to kill some guy rather than say that he decided to kill some guy without thinking it through. (By the way, I don't like how he immediately believes Tom in the previous chapter, and without even seeing the car in Gatsby's garage, he shoots Gatsby while he's relaxing in his pool. Wilson saw Tom with the car, yet he immediately believes Tom when he said some other guy ran Myrtle over?)
1. Gatsby spent so much time pursuing his grail that he was killed. If he could have left Daisy behind he would be alive. Gatsby is blind to everything around them. A common theme in literature is people seeing what they want to see and Gatsby will not see anything in Daisy but the young, nice girl he feel in love with five years ago. He lets all the evidence of her new life pass him by. She has a husband, a daughter, and a life that does not include Gatsby. Daisy is a prize. When Nick describes Gatsby as he reminisces about his early love with Daisy he says, "It excited him that many men already loved Daisy-it increased her value in his eyes. He felt their presence all about the house, pervading the air with the shades echoes of still vibrant emotions." He has worked his entire life for his prize. He has won and feels control. He was so close and he went almost mad trying to make the final steps. These final steps got him killed. He gambled and lost.
ReplyDelete2. All throughout the novel people see what they want to see. Nick won't let himself see Gatsby as a liar or criminal. No one sees the repercussions of their actions. These eyes are always there and see everything. They link to Wilson's eyes being opened to Myrtle's affair. Before this all Wilson can see is his doting wife. In the Valley of Ashes these eyes show the missing sight that is in the world of the Eggs, Tom sees his loving wife and he won't let anyone tell him that she can be anything else. In the Eggs people are so obsessed with the perfect life that they forget to see what is right in front of them. When Wilson says, "God sees everything," part of it is the ramblings of an upset husband, but also there is something else. This is put there to convey a message. The eyes are important. I don't think that Wilson meant that they eyes were literally God's eyes, I just think he wanted something to strengthen his message to Myrtle. The eyes remind me of Nick. They just watch. They see everything and if they could think they would know everything that happened. Like Nick, they don't say anything. They never leave, they just observe. Fitzgerald is showing that there are eyes everywhere, but no one is willing to say anything. The world is full of a lot of people like Nick. He is a pretty relatable character for most people. But, if the advertisement is like God it shows another difference between the Eggs and the Valley of ashes: God is watching the people who are poor, but the rich think that they are exempt from all rules. There is no representation like this in the Eggs. Fitzgerald is showing the culture America. There are many ways to interpret these ever present eyes and Fitzgerald makes sure the reader has to think about them.
1. By "committing himself to the following of a grail," Gatsby has begun his conquest to claim Daisy. He now sees Daisy as someone he idolizes rather than has true feelings for. She has essentially become a material object that he must claim, which starts Gatsby's obsessive infatuation. I agree with what John says in that it really has become an obsessive pursuit rather than about getting the girl. This entire situation has really turned into a game that Gatsby is determined to win.
ReplyDelete2. Like Alex, I had a hard time figuring out what exactly the advertisement meant, but in this chapter things finally fit together. I definitely don't think that Wilson is being crazy at all. In my opinion, the advertisement is a symbol for god looking down upon the west egg, east egg, and the valley of the ashes in disappointment. I thought back to the idea of moral responsibility in class, and I thought it really connected to this quote. In a sense, this "god" is judging American society as a moral wasteland because of all the lying and manipulating that goes on before his eyes. Also, the eyes of T.J Eckleberg could also symbolize us as the reader.
1. In agreement with Alex and Cam, I think that a grail is something that someone effortfully pursues and by reaching, the person thinks they will reach a state of fulfilling ecstasy. I think part of the reason Daisy was his grail is because she was so lusted after by other men and “it excited him, too, that many men had already loved Daisy - it increased her value in his eyes.” If he won Daisy, he would be better than all these other men who tried to win Daisy’s heart. It would prove that he was more powerful than these men, at a time when Gatsby did not have a lot of power as he was “a penniless young man without a past.”For him, everything he has done has been a competition with others where Daisy’s love affection is the prize, which adds to Daisy being seen more as an object that an actual person.
ReplyDelete2. I think that when Wilson speaks of “God seeing everything,” it made me think that the reader is playing God in this novel because we are seeing everything that is going on, and while it is through Nick’s point of view, he isn’t really putting himself into the novel and he isn’t really using his voice in the events of the novel. We are seeing everything, and we are placing our judgements on these characters. We are looking down at them and their terrible and immoral ways.
Like Cam said, it is the fact that Daisy is unobtainable that appeals to Gatsby. Gatsby grew up with girls flocking to him, and any woman who doesn’t fall at his feet is appealing to him. Just as the grail has no practical use, Gatsby doesn’t like Daisy for her personality. Fitzgerald’s use of the term grail fits Gatsby’s quest and intentions perfectly. He relentlessly searches to find something, for the sole reason of it being hard to find. Gatsby is not challenged by life, so Daisy stands out like a diamond in the rough.
ReplyDeleteThis scene was one of my favorites of the book. As Wilson slowly fades into insanity, his thoughts and intentions become more and more clear. It is when he sees the eyes outside that he knows what he must do. Eckleberg’s overwatching eyes are symbols for the looming powers of unaltered and uninfluenced justice. Over all the gossip and all the lying, the eyes remain and there is still a right and wrong. Whatever Gatsby’s reasoning, what he (or daisy) did was wrong. Wilson takes the advertisement and turns it into a justification of exacting revenge.
1. The Holy Grail is traditionally described as an object with magical or special powers. Gatsby has decided that Daisy is his crowning jewel to achieving everything he has ever wanted in his life. We've already seen that Gatsby treats Daisy as an object and by associating her with his final goal and his last and final achievement he hypes her up to much. He doesn't see her as a girl or a woman anymore, he sees her as the one thing that he has to get in order to achieve his American dream. Gatsby ends up throwing everything away just to get this last little achievement and that's why he gets so crazy, he can't stand the thought of not getting it all. He's come from a working class background and he didn't have the easiest childhood/teenage years and now that he has the opportunity to get it all, he won't take no for an answer.
ReplyDelete2. I think what Fitzgerald is trying to express through Wilson is that nothing can be kelt a secret. The rich think they can get away with anything and that the rules don't apply to them, but what they don't realize is that all eyes are on them, nothing that they do passes by the lower class without a little scrutiny. By saying "God sees everything" I think Fitzgerald is trying to say that someone is always watching (literally in the valley of ashes because of T.J Eckleburgs sign) and that people can't live under the assumption that things in the past will fade away. What Tom, Daisy, Gatsby, Nick, and Jordan are trying to do is pretend that Myrtles death never happened and if they think that long enough they'll make themselves believe it. However, Wilson ends up taking things into his own hands and makes Gatsby well aware of the fact that someone is always watching.
1. I see this quest for the grail (Daisy) as an obsession for material things. Gatsby is obsessed with the rich, "In various unrevealed capacities he had come in contact with such people, but always with indiscernible barbed wire between." He has always been searching for something or someone that confirms his wealth. Daisy is his grail. The item he needs to obtain that wealth. I think he fell in love with her after he realized how much she was worth.
ReplyDelete2. The eyes of T.J. Eckleburg are very important. In my mind only Wilson pictures Eckleburg's eyes as God's. Each character had their own interpretation of the eyes, but what everyone sees is the color of the eyes. Above this bleak, gray and charred wasteland we see the blue eyes of someone watching over us. I think Eckleburg can act as a big brother here watching over all the individuals and giving them hope to rise out of the ashes. (hint-American Dream)
1. I agree with the others who say that Daisy has become a sort of object to Gatsby. He spent a short time with her five years ago, when he was poor. To him, she must have symbolized everything he didn’t have. She must have seemed fascinating and exciting to him. He couldn’t be with her because he was too poor, and he had to go serve in the military. If he could somehow pick himself up, get rich, and finally get Daisy, he would have achieved everything. To someone who grew up without much money, being rich and marrying this rich girl is the ultimate dream. In the end, he’s unable to reach his goal because Daisy screws him over.
ReplyDelete2. I think that Wilson thinks that the eyes of T.J. Eckleburg symbolize those of god. If he’s the only truly innocent and moral person around (or at least in the story), he must look around at all of the bad that happens as a result of the immoral and hope that there is some sort of judgment being cast upon them. He takes comfort in the eyes because he thinks they are the eyes of god. God must be up there taking notes on all of this; ready to punish those who are “bad”. I don’t think this is true though. It’s just wishful thinking. Our only innocent, poor characters end up dead. Gatsby, who tried to climb his way out of his own valley of ashes, fails and ends up dead too. Tom, Nick, Jordan, and all of the ones like them live on just fine. There can’t really be someone looking out for the “good” people. And if god is watching over them, he seems pretty useless to me.
1. Gatsby wants Daisy for the wrong reasons. He chases her like an object, like the holy grail. He's not truly in love with Daisy Buchanan. He's obsessed with the idea of Daisy. He's obsessed with his past "love" and this beautiful, young, and classy girl. "It excited him (Gatsby), too, that many men had already loved Daisy-- it increased her value in his eyes." Gatsby is putting a value on Daisy as if she's a prize to be won. Because men wanted Daisy, it made Daisy more desirable and Gatsby wanted her more. Gatsby wants to win the prize.
ReplyDelete2. The eyes are always watching us. The eyes are always watching our good, bad, right, and wrong actions. They are always there, and a lot of the time we ignore them or pretend there not there. Gatsby, Daisy, Jordan, and Tom ignore the eyes of the higher power, because they believe they are always right. They are never at fault or wrong. They are ignorant to the eyes and morality. However, the eyes are always watching everyone. God does not pick and choose. He sees all of it. Dr. T.J. Eckleburg's eyes see the truth and reality of the Valley of Ashes.
1. The Holy Grail is the ultimate achievement. In every story I have read or heard about the Holy Grail, whoever is searching for it has a bad ending. They spent all of their lives looking for it and at the end the thing that creates their dreams shatters their lives. I feel like it is the same thing with Gatsby. Daisy was his grail and he whether he was in love or obsessed, he dream of having her. In a sense, she ended his life without meaning to. He never reach his grail since he died before he could 'have' her.
ReplyDelete2. In a sense, the doctor is like God. He 'saw' everything these 'horrible people' did that day. Yet he didn't intervene in any mystic way. He also witness the day we (Nick too) met Myrtle. Was present at the 'birth' and death of our innocent character. I think that Myrtle is the image of a miserable life that had an abrupt beginning and and abrupt end. Eckleberg saw all of this and he allowed it to happen. He let the characters live their lives and make their mistakes, the same way God acts. Also he 'sees' without acting just like Nick. Is Nick God?
Great posts everyone! A couple things to consider for those still to write:
ReplyDelete1. Daisy; grail; dream.
2. What if Wilson...is right?
I'm particularly struck by what Tanja and Sohail have written. Tanja has brought in the idea of the American Dream into the conversation. Is there support for making this jump? And Sohail posits that if these are the eyes of God, then, as he writes, God is "pretty useless." Think about our discussion today connecting the Valley of Ashes with the state of this world. One word that did come up in second period when we were talking about what was missing in this world was "faith." The only character who shows any faith in a higher power is Wilson, and, as Sohail points out, look at the good that did him—and then look at the "non-believers"and how things work out for them.
Just some points, thoughts, to consider. Carry on.
1. The word grail perfectly describes what Daisy is to Gatsby. I want to believe (although I'm not totally convinced) that he fell in love with beautiful, young girl named Daisy and then somewhere along the way his quest for love mistakingly became a quest for possession and triumph. It says, "It excited him, too, that many men had already loved Daisy- it increased her value in his eyes." The pure satisfaction of getting what every other man wants is what drives Gatsby forward. If he wins Daisy, he beat every man out there. He started out trying to prove to just Daisy that he was worth it, but he ended up looking like he was trying to prove himself as an asset to society and much more.
ReplyDelete2.I think the eyes represent those of everyone watching this tragedy play out. They may be God's eyes or even ours. All these painfully obvious details of the affairs and lying that we've been reading for the past few weeks have gone completely unnoticed or unrecognized, but they have all been seen. In a way, the eyes represent the truth. They've seen everything play out. All the deceit and lying and unhappiness has all been in plain sight not none of the characters have ever really seen any of it. They are all too dramatic to simply ignore the tragedies that have occurred in the story.
I'd like to preface my post by saying that this book was amazing. I forgot just how good the ending was.
ReplyDelete1. Yes, I think Daisy is his grail, which ties in with the theme of the book. There are two opposing sides, morality (the eyes of T.J., "moral attention forever" type philosophy) and selfish single-mindedness (like Jordan explained in the car). Just like everyone else, Gatsby has failed to live morally and has instead become preoccupied with his personal desire. He lost his life to Daisy, both literally and figuratively. In some ways this is a negative commentary on the American dream. Fitzgerald is pointing out how you shouldn't live for personal desires and fantasies.
2. I think Wilson is Fitzgerald's personification of his own personality in the book. He is a man, traumatized by the evilness of the world, who can merely look on with depression and despair. Wilson truly was the only character in the book who was a moral human being.
ReplyDelete1. I’ve said this before and I still think it’s true. Daisy as Gatsby’s grail, is Gatsby’s way of re-living his glory days of being in the army and having the girl. And he is SO set on getting the girl to relive his dangerous days that he is literally willing to do anything to get her and for her.
2. I definitely see how this question ties into today in second period, when we talked about how there is no hope or faith in the Valley of Ashes. I can definitely see George having faith however, though he does go about it in a strange way. He may lock Myrtle up after finding out about her “other life” but he has faith that she will love him once they move out West. The eyes of Eckleburg show how God was always there for the entirety of the book, but the characters (or one of them at least) only recognize it at the end, when God is useless to George and most of the characters at that point anyways. And I think how we’ve spoken about how this book is a loss of innocence for Nick, it’s also a loss of faith for many of the characters, specifically Tom and Gatsby.
1. Gatsby is determined to be with Daisy. Like others said, she is an unattainable grail. I think Gatsby does love Daisy, but I think this love becomes distorted by his unreal desires. It seems that Gatsby always needs more, that he is never really content. Getting Daisy becomes his ultimate quest. Nick said that everything in Tom's life has been anticlimactic since he stopped playing football. I think essentially the same thing would have happened to Gatsby after Daisy left.
ReplyDelete2. I think the eyes say that no action goes completely unseen. Everyone is doing things that they think are secret, but there are always people who know, and in this story people's secrets come back to get them. I think Wilson see's the eyes as protecting him. Like Ben said, the eyes are justification for his revenge.
1. She became his holy grail. The entire concept of the holy grail is that it is unattainable. She was the dream, the promise of wealth and fortune. He could never really have her. He knew that deep down I believe. One one level he thought if he had money he'd have her but I think he always knew he could never have her. When he goes out to the pool at the end of the chapter he had given up, he knew she wouldn't call. She may have loved him at some point but it was never "meant to be". Had he ever truely attained her, he would have been unfulfilled and unsatisfied. Her biggest appeal was that she was always separated from him. Money, distance, Tom, barriers always kept them from each other. He wanted what he couldn't have, he wanted to shiny, superficial idea that was Daisy, that was the grail.
ReplyDelete2. I think the eyes of Dr. T.J. Eckleburg were the closest thing anyone in that world ever had to God. God to them was the idea of a being looking over them, watching and srutinizing their every deed. The eyes saw all of the sins, all of the mayhem of the Eggs. The eyes saw affairs, death, fear, hatred and brutality. Wilson believed that there was some greater being watching. Whether he actually thought that Dr. T.J. Eckleburg's eyes were god's or not, he revered them. He understood that every action in their world was put under a microscope and scrutinized by eager eyes. People gossip and spy, they judge and whisper. Wilson believed that the eyes represented that, the idea that one is always being watched. We know he is not a religious person, "god" to him is society I believe. The Egg "posse" brought that voyeuristic aspect to the Valley of Ashes along with their insanity. He finally had clarity, he realized what was happening with Jordan and he realized it was all under the eyes of Dr. T.J. Eckleburg. He had no faith, like everyone in this immoral world, so he put that non existant faith in the only thing he knew, the ever watching eyes.
I think that the meaning of Daisy being a grail refers not only to the grail as an object, but to the search for the grail itself as well. When Gatsby reunites himself with Daisy, he expects everything to go back to the way it was before he left for the war. He expects Daisy to be the same person, and he expects himself to be the same person. But, as a search for a grail might go, Gatsby does not find this right away, and he never will find it. He will never find what he is looking for because what he is looking for no longer exists. Daisy is not the same person, and Gatsby, no matter how hard he tries, cannot recreate the past. Daisy is also a grail I think in that she is more of a figure to Gatsby, an object of his love. Gatsby is so in love not with Daisy herself, but with the love that the two of them share. Gatsby loves the way Daisy makes him feel, not her herself. It is a more selfish reason for why he cares for Daisy, but it also very telling of who Gatsby is. That's the reason for Gatsby's obsessive pursuit of Daisy, such a not special woman. Gatsby craves the love that they used to have, not Daisy.
ReplyDeleteI completely agree with Wilson. Many scandals, misunderstandings, and events have happened under the eyes of T.J. Eckleburg. The eyes see everything, including that which the characters do not see. But the significance in this is that the eyes are on a billboard, looking down on all that is happening. As a billboard, it has no opinion, and it is able to take a step back and look at the situation or story from a neutral standpoint. The eyes on the billboard are exactly identical to Nick. Nick is a character who really plays no part in what goes on, and yet he is present for everything. Nick knows all of the secrets. Nick watches from a neutral standpoint and gives no opinion. Nick is able to take a step back and fully understand the story and all of the events that occur. What Fitzgerald is telling us about this world with the eyes on the billboard is that there is a lack of understanding, a lack of seeing eye to eye in any given situation. All of the characters involved are blinded by their own problems and situations to care or understand the problems of anyone else. Nothing can be resolved, as everyone is blind and everyone fails to understand fully. The eyes symbolize sight, or a lack thereof, that needs to be obtained by people in this world.
The holy grail embodies that which is unattainable, the ultimate dream that is constantly teasing and dancing just out of reach of those who wish to obtain this dream. For this is what Gatsby's pursuit of Daisy is, a dream, an idea. The woman that he loved so intensely five years ago is no more, and what remains is a vision of the past. Gatsby has built up this image of Daisy into something that could never be possessed, something that simply does not exist. He believes her to be the answer to his life, and so he has built his life around this depiction.
ReplyDeleteThe eyes of T.J. Eckleberg peer through glasses, a screen that can cut through the murkiness that is human sight and pierce the veil, revealing the true. For these glasses reveal what society really is, the valley of the ashes. Not just for the poor, but for the rich as well. This reality is inescapable, even if it dwells behind a satin curtain.
I apologize, something has gone awry with my google account. This is Jimmy Peterson.
DeleteAh, and I also published this before I had finished by accident while trying to resolve this issue. Allow me to continue...
DeleteFor these eyes pierce the dream that is the American dream, revealing what really lies behind the gilded image. The Eggs represent what is possible to obtain, a gold-plated image that sustains the American dream. But underneath all of the expensive cars and noble mansions, and yes, even the gold toilets, lies the base of it all, completely obscured by the mass of ornaments. And this base, when uncovered, is a wasteland, the valley, with a pair of eyes gazing in, penetrating this ornamental display.
1. Having read Tennyson's "Idylls of the King" over the summer, this question is of particular interest to me. I certainly think that Fitzgerald may be trying to construe Gatsby's pursuit of Daisy as a hopeless venture similar to an Arthurian quest, and the consequences may be similar. During most versions of the grail legend, from Tennyson to Wagner and Monty Python to Indiana Jones, there are always some people that are going to die. Usually it's the people who are the most fanatical about finding the grail that end up undoing themselves in their fervor. In my opinion, however, Daisy has somewhat less to offer than the holy grail, although Gatsby goes to great lengths to secure her affections.
ReplyDelete2. Here Fitzgerald is both playing a little bit and trying to say something about the nature of most of the characters in the book. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the first mention of god in the book at all, and most of the behavior in the book is quite godless indeed. Wilson, one of the few good characters in the book, has finally realized that his wife is cheating with someone, but he doesn't know who he is. Perhaps
he believes that god has seen his wife's behavior. The ironic part is when Michaelis says "that's an advertisement." This is a brilliant ploy on the situation, because it could be interpreted both literally (the eye doctor) and metaphorically (god doesn't exist out here, old man). Even though Wilson is quite deranged by now, he is still trying to sort his way around the wreck of his marriage.
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ReplyDelete1. When it is said that Daisy had become his grail, it means that Daisy had become his goal, his thing that he reached for and desperately wanted. She had become this perfect image in his mind. Like I said before, Gatsby was chasing after a memory, a memory of a faulty image of perfection, emphasis on faulty. He had only known Daisy for a little bit and that didn’t allow for her faults, or rather, her lack of perfection, to appear. So, to Gatsby, she seemed like an extraordinary girl who would always love him, when really, she was a very ordinary girl.
ReplyDelete2. I feel like Wilson’s mutterings, as a character, are just mutterings of nonsense. He tries to use these incomplete clues, parts of his surroundings, and false information in order to make conclusions and find out who killed Myrtle. But, I feel like Fitzgerald IS speaking to us through these incoherent mumbles. I feel like these eyes of Eckleburg represent the eyes of sight, seeing past the charade of the rich and revealing that all of society is really the valley of ashes, a disgusting and stagnant place which has no life. It could also represent Nick in a way, for throughout this whole book, he has been the eternal third wheel, the bystander that sees all that is going on and knows all. Nick is like me, watching as the discussion fold outs about this very chapter, not saying much, and taking my own opinions about what people are saying. There is also the thing that we mentioned in class and that Ben mentioned. This is the first time God has been mentioned in the book, and it is mentioned be a deranged person who commits a murder-suicide. When Michaelis says "That's an advertisement," it could have the dual meaning of denying God’s very existence, which is very interesting, because God DOES seem to be absent from this world.
1. Cam brings up something crucial: that in making Daisy his 'grail', he has the feeling of "finishing what he started." This mind set is what has been driving Gatsby to continue has obsessive quest to obtain Daisy. He is not truly in love with Daisy-- he's in love with the idea that he could go from a penniless nobody to a a man of "her strata."
ReplyDelete2. For Wilson, the poster is the symbol of hope in this seemingly hopeless world. I think this is a great example of what people will turn to for help in times of need. Different people have different things they turn to. The fact that Wilson turns to this all-seeing advertisement ties the book together very well, as everyone has already said. Wilson has seen past the, as Jimmy calls it, the "satin curtain" that covers the ugliness of the upperclass. In this moment, Wilson stops being as naiive as he was before. He sees the truth, and Dr. Ekelburg lead him to it.
A grail is something that is greatly desired, an ultimate ideal or reward. Gatsby has, since his youth, been fascinated by rich people, the beautiful, clean look of everything about the rich, “There was a ripe mystery about it, a hint of bedrooms upstairs more beautiful and cool than other bedrooms, of gay and radiant activities taking place through its corridors, and of romances that were not musty and laid away already in lavender, but fresh and breathing and redolent of this year’s shining motor-cars and dances whose flowers were scarcely withered. It excited him….” When Gatsby was first introduced to this life style this is what he saw, and fell in love with the idea of it. I think he associated all this wealth with happiness (bold part of quote). This “perfect world” ideal became engrained in his head while he and Daisy were still young, wild, and careless. He also found it exciting that, “men had already loved Daisy,” making her some kind of trophy and if she chose him above all it made him someone great, of importance. I think although Gatsby obviously found Daisy attractive, she has always been a prize for him, a goal to accomplish. Reflecting on Gatby’s comments now makes me think that he was never really in love with Daisy for who she was. Gatsby took advantage of her, “She thought I knew a lot because I knew different things from her…,” he was “falling in love” with Daisy because she was in awe of him, made him feel great (manly, successful, meaningful kind of great), and paid attention to him like no one had before. This voice full of money was calling him towards her, reassuring him that that was the life he wanted. Gatsby became infatuated with Daisy’s colossal house and the money in her voice, she became his grail. When I looked up grail I read something about Holy Grail as well: “a cup or chalice that in medieval legend was associated with unusual powers, especially the regeneration of life and, later, Christian purity, and was much sought after by medieval knights: identified with the cup used at the Last Supper and given to Joseph of Arimathea” (dictionary.com). I think it’s interesting that it was associated with the regeneration of life, because I thought of Gatsby and how in a way he is trying to regenerate his life, rebuild his glory days, his happy days with Daisy when they were both young by winning her, this magical (of some power) prize which will help achieve all his dreams.
ReplyDeleteWilson definitely has a point, and is not simply rambling. I picture Wilson looking at the eyes of T.J. Eckleburg at first in an understanding manner, as if he was looking at a mirror and into his eyes. Just like the advertisement Wilson has been in the Valley of the Ashes for a long time and things happen right around him, right under his nose. He doesn’t notice or pick up on them right away, but as soon as the surface is brushed and all the haze clears a little, the ugly truth can be seen. Then Wilson goes on to say, “You may fool me, but you can’t fool God!” However, for a few seconds I think he identifies with eyes behind the smudgy glasses. In the Valley of Ashes where there is no faith, no light, no hope, no life…it’s a dead land, there is still always someone watching. The terrible, immoral, carelessly rude lives that people like Tom, Daisy, and Gatsby are carrying out have effects on people, like Myrtle. To them it means nothing, but someone is still watching as they throw their lives away and in the process dispose of or ruin that of others.
In my opinion Gatsby's sacred grail is the pursuit of that perfect American life twhere he dreams of achieving Daisy's love. His whole dream is based on the memory of an 18 year old girl who was perfect in all ways to Gatsby. Daisy is an infatuation which he is obsessed with and believes can save him and complete his life. Gatsby is so into his life that he believes he can buy Daisy into his life just like he has used money to attain everything he has and has wanted. So Daisy is basically another valuable possession he needs to add to his already astonishing wealth. In the end we see Gatsby's wild and selfish perseverance to get someone who was unattainable lead to his death.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion since Wilson is shocked and emotionally unstable he references Dr Eckleburgs eyes as god. But I think he views those eyes as a dirty figure who watches everyone's actions in New York and the eggs since the Valley of Ashes is between both areas. So no one can escape or cover up mistakes, sins, and nothing goes unseen through eyes.
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ReplyDeleteI completely think that Daisy is the grail, she is something he has been trying to get, or achieve for years, since he met her. It is not simply that he would like to be with her or around her, it is that he needs to. He has no other reason fot living than to be with Daisy. His whole life is now about getting Daisy which I think means he isn't and will never really live, He has all the money anyone could want and he can dow whatever he wants but He will not start until he gets Daisy, and now that we know that will not happen , he will never live. He will never be able to enjoy his life until he gets the grail, being Daisy and know that he never will his reason for really living his life is non existent. I also agree with Amanda, in that not only would he get his grail, but he would get many other men's grail in that he would win. He would be the one who got Daisy and he would be the one everyone wanted to be and everybody wanted to have what he had.
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I think that they eyes do represent the all seeing. Like we were talking about today, and Nick, that even when one thinks that nobody is watching there is always somebody there. Especially in this small community, I think the eyes represent the all seeing and the moral eyes. Like they are watching all there activities, judging morality They not only see everything but they have the power to be the all knowing eyes. I agree with he first statement, I do not know if it is god, but those eyes represent someone watching this little world of immoral people.
I think that, to Gatsby, Daisy represents the sort of eternal life that he has spent so long striving for. Gatsby started out as insignificant, no one was going to remember him after he died. He went to war and he saw death. During this time he truly experienced the finality of death and he must have seen how terrifyingly easily a person can be forgotten after death. Although he may have remembered many of the fallen fondly it would be hard to assume that he did not realize how many more must have died without much lasting human recognition. I think that Daisy represents the money and that money represents, to him, eternal life, or at least a lasting impression. So many others may be buried with small tomb stones or maybe they died in small houses that were easily re-inhabited or torn down but Gatsby dies leaving behind his mansion. A huge and gaudy tomb stone that will not be forgotten so easily. I think that this is the true reason that he is so obsessed with Daisy.
ReplyDeleteI definitely think that this comment is important. I think that it represents another consciousness that rises above the Valley of the Ashes while remaining separate from the glamorous Eggs. I feel like these eyes are very important and they do seem to point towards an observation that the reader is, as of yet, unable to make due to a lack of sufficient information although that could be totally wrong because I am apparently the only senior who has not read this book before and I do not know what lies within the next chapter.
1. Gatsby's referral to Daisy as a grail (as we talked about in class) shows that rather than thinking of her as a person to strive for she is more an object of Gatsby's desire. As we learn over the course of the book, Daisy really is nothing particularly special, she is desired by Gatsby specifically because she has been unattainable to him for so long. Gatsby has finally attained almost anything he could ask for. He even has a hydroplane. But even in the end Gatsby still has not obtained Daisy. He hasn't been granted his final wish that Daisy had always loved him. He needs that crowning jewel on his pile of treasure and despite all of his wishing he never gets it. Gatsby never fulfills his dreams, and never obtains the grail.
ReplyDelete2. While at first my thought was that Wilson is downright out of his mind, he does seem to have a point. Unfortunately I had very little understanding of what he was really trying to say. It seems obvious to me that throughout the book Eckleberg's eyes have been watching everything. The City of Ashes constitutes not only the middle ground between the eggs and New York it encompasses the whole culture we have been watching throughout the book, and T.J Eckleberg's eyes saw it all.