Hart has reached the first crucible of his year at Harvard Law School, and we see that Susan indeed has reason to worry about him. One lesson of Chapter 32 for the reader, particularly the student reader, is "don't try this at home."
Respond to the following statements based on your reading of Chapters 28-32.
1. Hart is becoming the dick the law school wants him to be. Agree or disagree. Support your answer.
2. Kingsfield is a sadist. Agree or disagree. Support your answer.
3. Harvard Law School has broken its implicit contract with Hart. Agree or disagree. Support your answer.
What I'd like for everyone to do is come back to the blog and respond to an answer by someone in your class: agree, disagree, add to, complement. I'm wanting you all to actually read what your classmates are saying (not that you aren't already) and let them know you're thinking about what they're saying.
Finally:
This is about 10 minutes of the 1973 film version. It's much more romantic than the novel, not surprisingly. But if you skip ahead to about the 6:40 mark, you can see the entire study group as it is portrayed in the film. Kingsfield asks his question, and, in succession, we see Anderson, Bell, O'Connor (now an ex-member in the book), Ford, and finally and unfortunately for him, Kevin. Take a look: I'll ask you what you think of this portrayal tomorrow in class.
See you guys tomorrow.
1. Yes, I think Hart is starting to become a dick. He's that smarty pants in class now. He think he's so much better than everyone else. He's that annoying teacher's pet that all the other students in the class despise. Hart has become cocky and egotistical. In the beginning of the book, he was that student who was always anxious and nervous to answer a question, but now Hart is eager to answer the questions and show how smart he is. Hart used to be like Kevin, but now Hart is shutting down Kevin in class. Hart is humiliating Kevin.
ReplyDelete2. I don't particularly think Kingsfield is a sadist. I don't think Kingsfield enjoys being cruel. I think he may purposely be a tough and difficult professor. But I think describing Kingsfield as a sadist is a little bit of a stretch and exaggeration. He's just a tough professor, but his students respect him.
1. I do think that Hart is become less and less of the scared quiet student we met at the beginning of the novel and more and more of a showy dick. He’s always raising his hand and thinks that he and Kingsfield have some special bond because he is so loud in class trying to show that he is the smartest and most powerful student in the class. I think the part that makes him even more of an ass is the fact that this has been his goal the entire to time: to study really hard to be able to show his superiority over others. And before this section, there was maybe hope that he was still the sensitive guy he was before he caught up in Harvard Law School or at he was when it came to his relationship. But the scene where he was yelling at Susan to make him breakfast, it just showed me that he has fully become the dick law school wants him to be.
ReplyDelete2. Agreeing and adding on to what Erin said, I think Kingsfield is teaching the way he is to help his students rather harm and embarrass them. I think he is preparing them for the real world and giving the skills to be able to navigate it, and I think that is something important for Kingsfield to do.
3. I disagree with this statement because I think Harvard Law’s contract to Hart is to challenge him and keep him on his toes. I think up to chapter 32 in the novel, things may have been getting a little too easy for Hart; he prepares for class and then contributes. He had this system and it worked for him. I think the fiasco with the paper threw him off and tested him like Harvard Law should.
I agree with what you said about #3. Hart's learned how to do well in the class, unlike most other students, and Kingsfield sees this as a reason to give him a harder challenge. He needed to be tested. Kingsfield gave him an opportunity to prove himself in a more real life situation and Hart failed. Maybe this is to help Hart reevaluate how prepared he thinks he really is.
DeleteI would say that Hart is becoming the person that law school wants him to be, but not necessarily a dick in that I just don't see Hart as a jerk, my definition of a dick. But, his attitude is definitely changing in a negative way. Hart is succumbing to the ways of Harvard Law, he is letting all of his studies and his school engulf him. Because of this, Hart becomes a different person. We see the change in the Hart from the beginning of the book, when Hart does not want to be called on and has sympathy for the other students, when Hart indeed has, a heart, to the Hart now, who must assert himself whenever possible and answer every question he can. The new Hart that Harvard produces is arrogant. He begins to think of himself as better than the other students, and he thinks he's entitled to save these other students from Kingsfield's wrath whenever they have trouble answering a question. Part of the arrogance is in the fact that he thinks he has the power and knowledge to save them from Kingsfield's class in the first place. Hart becomes so confident and arrogant that he understands Kingsfield better than anyone else, and that he succeeds and achieves more in his class than anybody else.
ReplyDeleteI don't see Kingsfield as a sadist, I see him as an extremely stern professor who knows what he's doing and who is doing his job. I think he's pushing these young adults to their limits because he sees it as necessary in their growth as law students, and because he wants to adequately prepare them for a life of law outside of law school. He gives his students a year-long test, a test that never ends until the course is over. This test is the best teaching method a law professor could give their students as it simulates the real world of law. I have not finished the book, but I feel that in the end, whoever can succeed in passing Kingsfield's year-long test with his sanity still intact will receive Kingsfield's congratulations and respect. I feel that he will break his facade that he has kept all year and show it was just an effective teaching method.
I'm a little confused with this last question. What implicit contract has Harvard ever had with Hart? And in what way is anything broken? It is not like Harvard promised anything would be easy, that anything could be taken for granted. Hart knows that Harvard Law school will be the hardest thing he has ever done, he just doesn't know how hard. And yes, Harvard turns out to be much, much harder than I think Hart could have comprehended in the beginning, but Harvard never tries to cover this up in any way. Harvard has not broken anything with Hart because Harvard never promises him anything in the first place. I think all of the change in Hart, all the change that one might argue Harvard is responsible for, is introduced to Hart by Harvard, but it is Hart's fault for the actual change of himself.
I definitely agree with you, Sam, about your thoughts on Kingsfield, especially about breaking the mask at the end of the story and maybe surprising some of his students with a different persona under the cold and stony outside of his law professor shell. I haven't finished the book either, but I am hoping that this is what happens, though I'm not sure how likely it is to do so.
DeleteI agree with Sam about Kingsfield's class is a year-long test. Kingsfield's class is a constant challenge for most students. It keeps the students on their toes and on top of their work. "I think he's pushing these young adults to their limits because he sees it as necessary in their growth as law students, and because he wants to adequately prepare them for a life of law outside of law school." Off of what Sam said, I think Kingsfield is a good representation of the implicit contract Harvard has made with Hart and other students.
DeleteI agree with Erin that Hart is humiliating Kevin. I think that Hart sees the way Kevin is now and sees himself, the way he used to be. It scares Hart a little bit because he doesn't want to go back to that guy who is too scared to raise his hand and contribute. So, Hart humiliates him to distance himself as much as possible from the person he used to be.
ReplyDelete1. In this few chapter my perspective of Nick has change completely. At first he was a student to who I could relate, a hard working student who likes to undertake challenges. However, he has become a dick. He shows off and not only that but he brags about it. I highly dislike people who brag about stuff. He also becomes Kingsfield personal admirer.
ReplyDelete2. I don't think Kingsfield can be consider a sadist. I think that he does what he feels will shape this young adults into respectable lawyers. Maybe his teaching techniques may feel harsh but only those with the will to learn will survive. I agree with Jenny in how this is important to Kingsfield to teach this way. He has been teaching for 30 years and is the only way he knows.
3. Again I agree with Jenny, Harvard's contract is to challenge the student, Hart in this case. I think that Hart began to under estimate the school and he could not put his head together. Harvard's contract is about bringing the best out of you but sometimes some people can not take the pressure.
In response to 2: But when he humiliates Kevin in front of the entire contract law class, is that teaching? He is weeding out the weak link and attacking it, at the expense of that one person. The entire class laughs at him, mostly because they want to get on Kingsfield's good side.
Delete3. (Sorry for some reason I forgot about #3) Adding on to what Jenny said, I think that the Harvard Law School did not break the implicit contract with Hart. I think the implicit contract is Harvard will constantly challenge you and prepare you to be the best lawyer you can be. I do agree that Hart is starting to settle in and starting to do really well in his classes. It seems as though Harvard Law is not really a challenge for Hart as he is now the smarty pants in the class. Hart starts to become a little cocky. However, when Hart starts to work on the paper, Hart starts going back to his old, weak self. He's no longer in his comfort zone. This paper is Harvard's and Kingsfield challenge for Hart. Therefore, I don't think Harvard has broke the contract.
ReplyDeleteI totally agree with this. Harvard is constantly pushing the limits in learning, and its up to the student to keep up. Hart shouldn't have been so relaxed out Harvard, and should take it more seriously. I think your right about the paper too, Kingsfield uses it as a tool to take Hart out of his comfort zone.
Delete1. Yes, I would somewhat agree with this statement, especially evidenced by the rude way he treats Susan in the whole of Chapter 30: “[Hart] fell asleep thinking about Susan. Hart woke up at ten. At first, he didn’t believe it… Hart ran back to his room. He shook his watch. It still read ten o’clock…. He’d missed contracts, but he could still salvage torts... He’d grabbed the wrong book…. Susan opened the door, dressed in jeans. She smiled when she saw him…. ‘I missed class,’ he screamed. ‘I missed class because I can’t get my goddammed mind together with you giving me so much bullshit. I missed it because you won’t let us lead any kind of organized life.’ ‘Us?’ she said. ‘Mr. Hart, I agree you need organization.’ She looked him up and down. ‘But US?’… ‘Breakfast,’ she said. ‘Well, give me some,’ he snapped, hanging his head down over the table. ‘Or is that too organized?’… ‘One, hot tot, deluxe, superior, top-drawer breakfast…oh go fuck yourself….’ [Hart] jumped up, shook the milk off his arms. ‘Now get this,’ she said. ‘I want you out of here. And I don’t want you to ever come in here and scream and me again. But I’ll just settle for having you out’” (102-104). He falls asleep thinking of Susan, then somehow sleeps through contracts, forgets his book to torts and decides to go to Susan’s and bitch about how their relationship isn’t organized enough, all because he missed his class because all of his nights of lost sleep caught up with him. He blames this all on here, which is a complete dick move, and then she tells him off. He deserves the figurative slap in the face to wake him up to the fact that life is more than law.
ReplyDelete2. I don’t think Kingsfield is a sadist or that he enjoys inflicting pain upon his students. I think he is a difficult and challenging teacher, but I don’t think he does it on purpose. I’m not saying that since he’s been teaching for 30+ years makes his teaching style the right way to teach, but he is trying to teach his students so that they’ll learn, not so that they’ll hate him forever. I don’t think his style is meant to purposely demean students or break their self-esteem, but I think that’s a side effect of the way he teaches.
3. I don’t really understand the last question at all. I never really figured out any sort of implicit contract Harvard had with Hart. He was never promised that everything will work out perfectly or that law school will be easy or fun. Harvard never was portrayed to be anything except prestigious and difficult, which is exactly what it is. It wasn’t portrayed to be a school where he’ll meet his match, both educationally and emotionally. It wasn’t promised to be a place where he would make friends and enjoy life. You go to Harvard Law School to get a law degree. You work your ass off to have the name Harvard on your resume and so that the $75,000 you paid to attend Harvard seem worth your time. Harvard never promised Hart anything.
I happen to slightly disagree on what you said about question #2, Molly. I think that Kingsfield does purposfully inflict some humiliation on his students. Like when he said to Bell "I think, Mr. Bell, I shall avoid the privilege of ringing you further." (107). He mocks him when he says his name is Bell "as in Liberty Bell" (106). I think some of it is just a byproduct of his teaching methods but i also think some of it is a method of maintaining his own order and power in his classroom.
DeleteI agree primarily with Molly and disagree partially with Tanja because although he does say that I think it also depends on how weak or strong the receivers of the so-called insult is. Bell could not be self-conscious abou his name at all, it may even be funny. Also, I think there is definitely a difference between just doing the infliction of pain and enjoying it. It doesn't necessarily say Kingsfield feels some pleasure by humiliating them.
Delete1. I do think that Hart is becoming the dick that law school wants him to be, but I don't hate him for it. He is definitely becoming more assertive in class, but I see this positively. He is no longer so intimidated by Kingsfield that he is nauseous after speaking with him. Still, he judges his other classmates, and thinks he is better than everyone else. Hart is succumbing to the pressures of law school, particularly Kingsfield. I find Harts behavior in ch.32 very disturbing. He is more than a dick; he is completely insane.
ReplyDelete2. I do think Kingsfield is a sadist. At first I interpreted his behavior with good intentions, but after his interaction with Hart I think he is fully aware of the stress he puts on his students. Kingsfield is too smart not to know Harts type and understand him. I think that Kingsfield knew when he assigned the paper that Hart would not be able to write it. What Kingsfield did to Hart was not beneficial to him at all, and I believe that Kingsfield knew fully what he was doing. He makes Hart suffer for no reason, which is sadistic.
3. I agree with Sam and Jenny. I don't think that Harvard has broken any contract with Hart. I think the contract Hart has with Harvard is that Harvard will make him a lawyer. This is paralleled with the case in Ch.28 (my page 99), where something is promised, and not delivered. However, Harvard does not promise to make students lawyers, it is just the goal. Therefore if Hart fails, Harvard still has not broken any contract.
I agree, Hart does seem to be going crazy. It isn't just a yearning for knowledge anymore, Hart's desire for success and hope for praise from Kinsfield has completely taken control over him. He can't even sleep. He is too busy thinking about Susan or his paper for Kingsfield. Hart needs to take a step back and see what he is doing to himself.
DeleteI agree with your answer on number 2. He know certain types of students when he sees them (especially after 30 years of teaching.) This applies to Kevin too. Kingsfield must know that Kevin isn't able to handle being singled out in class, yet he keeps pressing him. That's not the mark of a good professor.
Delete1. The point has been made that Hart has changed, but I honestly think that he is the same person now as he was when the book began. I think that what has happened, more or less, is that Hart's personal desire to achieve and exceed expectations has gotten the best of him. He wants to do it all, but in a world where teachers are sadists who humiliate and abuse their students, doing everything perfectly just isn't feasible. Something has got to give. If anything, I feel bad for him. He is, as of yet, incapable of realizing how fucked up the world of HLS is. Instead, he idolizes Kingsfield and thinks of himself as the failure. If he has in fact become a dick, the only reason would be because of the pressure and inner-turmoil that Kingsfield has caused him.
ReplyDelete2. Yes, of course Kingsfield is a sadist. A lot of people have expressed their belief that all of Kingsfield's games are for the purpose of hardening and preparing his students for the world of law, but their are just too many anomalies with this idea. If he wanted his students to succeed, why is he actively causing the mental break down of Kevin? Why doesn't he care that a third of the class doesn't even talk and is most likely failing his class? The only students that Kingsfield even gives the slightest shit about are the upper third of the class, the students who are the most promising, but I don't think he would care even if THEY failed.
3. Harvard Law School has agreed to teach Hart and adequately prepare him to go into the field of law. I think that HLS has done so for Hart, but I wouldn't say the same for the other students. Unless you are like Hart and are capable of taking on extreme loads of pressure, you will most likely not learn very much in Kingsfield's class.
I agree with what you answered for 2. Kingsfield is not just trying to weed out the weak, but rather to break them completely. He could care less about his students, even the ones, as you said, that show true potential. No other teachers seem to be this harsh, and they produce fine students. Kingsfield has no reason to treat his students the way he does other than for his own pleasure.
DeleteI want to add to Jake's comment. Does Kingsfield care about Hart? This goes to the question I posed about the implicit contract Harvard Law School has with Hart the student. Molly stated that you go to Harvard Law School to get a law degree. Indeed. That is the overt contract. Hart works—and if he survives, as the television Kingsfield intones—he will get a law degree. That's school. BUT. Does a school, a place of education, owe its students more? Is the school you attend only about the degree you get at the end of senior year? Is that all school is supposed to be? Osborn asks in the into to my edition, "The idea of reciprocity [that is, a mutual exchange] is important for contract law because it has to do with the expectations of those who form a contract. When people enter into a deal, they expect something in return." It's clear that Hart feels a responsibility to Kingsfield to finish the paper he's worked on for nearly three weeks and in the process exhausting himself. Look at the quote at the top of the page. Does Kingsfield owe him some degree of compassion and kindness, if only to look at him when he is in his presence? Look at that chapter. Look at how Kingsfield is described as Hart asks for more time because Hart felt he had a "moral responsibility" to fulfill the trust his teacher gave him. It is not a legal contract, of course, but Hart does believe in the concept of reciproctiy, which is at the heart (no pun intended) of the course Kingsfield is teaching him. In Chapter 1, Kingsfield asks Hart what he thinks the doctor owes the boy whose hand was made hairy by the doctor's treatment—so what does Kingsfield owe Hart as a human being?
DeleteIn response to John's question, and to disagree slightly with Zoe and Jake, Kingsfield's objective is indeed to weed out the students who have no chance of succeeding or passing his class. There is a quote I'm itching to use from the next reading that would express my point about Kingsfield very well, but even that doesn't show much of a human side to Kingsfield. What matters about him is that the Law School expects him to make the process more efficient by targeting the students who can't possibly make it through law school. This is saying something about the tone of the law school in general, not so much Kingsfield as a person. He simply doesn't have any feelings in the matter.
Delete1. I agree that Hart is becoming the dick that law school wants him to be but I don’t think he’s doing it consciously. I think that he agreed to take on Kingsfields project and was a little overzealous and that’s why he started to get a little crazy. Before he was fine and he was taking the pressure well and he was figuring it all out without losing himself. Now that he takes on the paper and wants to impress Kingsfield, he loses his sight on getting out of law school as himself. I think the change in attitude he undergoes in this section is drastic but I think he’s just trying to do too many things right and its not working for him. He’s not a dick for trying and for wanting to impress Kingsfield, he’s a dick for thinking that he could write an amazing paper and that he could keep up with the rest of his work. He gets too cocky and then the way he snaps on Susan, I don’t think he meant to but I don’t like him for thinking he can do it all, because he cant.
ReplyDelete2. Yes and no. He was mean to Bell for no reason but I think that’s just Kingsfields weird sense of gaining control over 20-something year olds. He saw he was losing the class and he needed to reign them back in and gain the control that fuels his fire. I think there was some honesty and some sense of giving a capable student a challenge when he gave Hart the paper. I don’t think he wanted to set Hart up for failure but I do think that a part of him wanted to see if Hart really is on top of things as he thinks he is and if he could take on the challenge.
3. Like Zoe said I think that Harvard is very careful in creating their contracts with their students (it is Harvard Law School after all). I think that every ones goal is to become a lawyer but the ones who take advantage of their resources and who actually try are the ones who will succeed. The kids who sit in the back or don’t show up for class don’t want it anymore, but the kids like Hart who want it more than anything, Harvard will dig its claws deeper into them. I also think that this contract it strictly about law school, I don’t think they promised sanity or a job at the end of the process. To those who want it, Harvard will provide an education that can amount to nothing unless the students carry on outside of the school.
I agree with your #2. Kingsfield longs for that control yet I don't think it is purely for selfish reasons. He seems to have this weird dichotomy of self-righteous asshole mixed with sincere almost advisor. He wanted Hart to succeed and I agree that he felt like Hart could write the paper. He was testing Hart, just as he has tested all of his students throughout the novel.
Delete1) I agree that Hart is becoming a dick, but I don't think this is his fault at all. The atmosphere of the classroom is lifeless, and Hart is simply a storage unit for knowledge instead of a human being. He has forgotten who he truly is and how to treat others and has therefore become more of the dick that we saw in Susan's kitchen. Hart is not a dick, but the school has transformed him into one. There are positive aspects to this transformation, as Zoe said, in that he has taken back some of the power and is no longer intimidated by Kingsfield. Hart needs to take a step back and build back relationships rather than continue in this deadly cycle.
ReplyDelete2)I do not think Kingsfield is a sadist. There's no doubt that he will pounce at a sign of weakness, but I see this as an element of the environment he's trying to create. I don't think that Kingsfield derives pleasure from the failures of his students, if that was true he would have no reason to teach. Kingsfield is in no way supportive of his class, but I think that stern attitude is rooted in his demand for success.
3)I'm not entirely sure that I understand the question, but if what other student's have said and the contract deals with " adequately preparing him to go into the field of law", then this contract has absolutely been upheld. Hart is challenged each and every day, and the minute he begins to coast, Kingsfield throws a curveball and sends him into the insecure mess that keeps him challenged.
Ben, look at my response to Jake's post. What is the implicit contract in any school? Does a school, be it Paideia, Georgia Perimeter College, or Harvard Law School, create a contract with its students that goes beyond the degree it promises if a student does the work? Can you—Ben Mapes—reasonably expect to be treated fairly by your school? If you have stayed up for four days straight working on a paper, can you expect the teacher for whom you did this for to look at you as you plead for more time?
DeleteIn response to Ben's 2nd answer, I completely agree. I think that Kingsfield focuses in his power for when it's needed. Hart was becoming too cocky, and Hartsfield gave him a test. A test that he probably guessed Hart would fail, but a test that Hart would learn from.
Delete1. Through the book Nick's character has changed completely. In the beginning of the book he was a doe eyed boy wanting to make it at law school but now he raises his hand for every question and silently degrades those who don't have all the answers. He works constantly on a paper for Kingsfield that he can't even start. He does research upon research but cannot write the paper because he doubts that it would be good enough for Kingsfield. He is turning into the person that the law school tries to create every year. He can't sleep and he needs every aspect of his life to be organized. Nick is changing and it is definitely not for the better.
ReplyDelete2. I don't think Kingsfield is a sadist. He can act vicious and almost cruel sometimes but as a whole he is not a sadist. All we know about him is through the eyes of his students. All we know about his personal life is that he has a daughter. I think that Kingsfield sincerely likes his job and it is important to him. He has Susan come to his parties because he wants her to be there for him. Kingsfield's life is consumed with law. Harvard creates people like him. For all we know he could have been just like Hart when he first came to law school.
3. I don't think Harvard has broken an implicit contract with Hart. Harvard's goal is to make lawyers. Hart is becoming a lawyer. Harvard never promises anything about character. It just promises to mold an excepting student into a lawyer. Hart would not take back the choice of going to Harvard. He enjoys it to a certain extent. He likes being challenged. As Susan said Harvard likes people like Hart.
Elizabeth: Hart, not Nick. It's hard to shake a paper so soon after you've written it, isn't it?
Delete1. Hart is becoming a complete asshole. It really struck me how much Hart has changed when he blurted out the answer while poor Kevin was struggling to find the right words. Hart seems almost obsessive compulsive about Kingsfield's class. I do agree with Ben though in that this isn't completely Hart's fault. Harvard Law School is such a competitive and anxious environment, so it is expected that each character will break down. I just don't like that Hart is being rude to his friends, or rather peers, so he can get ahead in class and impress Kingsfield. I really like how Elizabeth said "silently degrades" because while Bell is a complete dick and he knows it, Hart seems to think of himself as better than everyone else.
ReplyDelete2. I think Kingsfield is a sadist. He calls out the weakest students in the class, taunting and demeaning them, and barely gives a hint of praise to the students doing things right. Also, I think that Kingsfield asked Hart to do the paper because he knew how much Hart idolized him and understood that placing this amount of work and stress on Hart would only break him down further. I think that Kingsfield enjoys seeing and making his students fail because he doesn't want anyone to be on his level. Kingfield's attitude towards his students is quite sickening.
3. Harvard has not broken a contract with Hart. Undoubtedly, Hart is doing very well and is learning a lot of new information. I agree with Elizabeth in that Harvard never implicitly promises anything about character. But while Hart is transitioning into a Harvard lawyer as HLS promised, it is really changing him for the worse.
1. I agree that Hart is becoming a dick. In chapter 28, Hart pounces on Kevin’s indecisiveness to show Kingsfield how much better he is in comparison. In chapter 31, Hart tries to do to Bell what Ford did to Kevin earlier in the book. He wants to make Bell look stupid, and therefore make himself look smarter, in front the class and Kingsfield. Bell gives the right answer, but Hart feels he can present it in a better way, so he goes running up to Kingsfield to show that he’s just a little bit better. Hart’s gone from the quiet, nice guy to the guy I would never want to be in a class with. He’s the guy who waits for you to get something wrong so he can shoot his hand up in the air and make you look like an idiot. When you get something right, he goes to the teacher and says, “Well actually…” He’s also pretty nasty to Susan when he barges into her apartment after missing class. Law school is finally making its mark on him.
ReplyDelete2. I do think that he’s a sadist. It’s not simply that he’s a good, tough professor. He’s not helping anyone by continually making Kevin feel like shit. He might justify his actions by saying that he’s just preparing them for the real world, and maybe it is helping some of them, but the real reason he does it is because he enjoys it. Being extremely hard on people in class is not all there is to being a good professor. He should try and help them when he sees they’re not doing well. Or, if there are too many people for him to help, he could refer them to someone else. At the very least he could lay off of the ones who he knows are struggling.
3. I don’t think that Harvard has broken any contract with Hart. Hart, just like everyone else at that school, is there by choice. He chose to become a student at this law school. There was never an agreement, implicit or otherwise, that law school would be easy or that none of the teachers would be assholes. Anyone smart enough to get into Harvard Law would know that there was no way it was going to be easy or even completely fair. If they can survive it these kids will be entering the job market with one of the most sought after degrees in the world from one of the most respected institutions in the world. However Hart may be feeling, I still think it’s worth it. Kevin on the other hand may want to get out while he’s still breathing.
1. While I wish this were not the case, Hart is being molded and disfigured by Harvard Law School. I wouldn't go as far as to say he's a dick...yet. He still helps out Bell in class, he still hopes O'Conner will return to the study group, however he is losing a lot of the humanity I liked about him. The way he treats Susan in chapter 30 is appalling. He is loosing control over his life, in the first chapter we learn how much of a control freak he is. Harvard Law School takes that control away from him and I believe this is causing him to unravel. He is not being a dick so much as he is letting Harvard take advantage of him and shape him into someone he is not.
ReplyDelete2. As I said in my comment on Tanja's post I do not believe Kingsfield is truly a sadist. He wants the students who try hard, work their asses off and have talent to succeed. He wants to weed out the weaklings. He actually shows some sort of true connection with Hart and I believe he did think Hart could get the paper done. Hart was careless with his work and Kingsfiel, realizing this, let another student have an opportunity to shine. Kingsfield loves power and the classroom is the perfect outlet for this. This desire for power, however, does not make him a sadist, simply a human being.
3. I agree with Jake on this point. I believe Harvard has kept its implicit contract WITH HART. Hart is bought into the system. As we have learned from moments in Kingsfield's class, contracts require mutual effort. Hart is willing to invest in the contract, as Harvard invests in him. Kevin, on the other hand, is not contributing to Harvard as others do and is therefor breaking his contract. Hart and Harvard feed off of each other, keeping the contract very much intact.
1. Dick may not be the best word I would use to describe what Hart is becoming. Law school has definitely warped him into an obsessive maniac, and his dickishness has come from that. But I think a lot of it may sprout from his determination to satisfy Kingsfield. The evolution from determined to crazed not subtle, and his complete obsession with pleasing Kingsfield consumes Hart. In a way, his motivation is coming back to bite him in the ass, which seems to be what Kingsfield and Law school wants.
ReplyDelete2. The way Kingsfield treats Hart at the end of Chapter 32 confirms to me that he is very much a sadist. When Hart walks into the secretary's office, she literally gasps upon seeing him, due to his grotesque condition. his 70's hair is matted and messy, and his hands are covered in ink from his typewriter. Yet when he apologizes to Kingsfield profusely, Kingsfield does not seem to even take note of his visible effort, and I think what he says is very premeditated, because Kingsfield knows precisely what will crush Hart the most; the same words would crush any hopeful and determined first-year.
3. It has not broken its contract with Hart, because hart new what he was putting himself into to some degree. Hart may never have been able to foresee having a professor comparable to a dictator, but he knew what work came with Harvard Law school. The name carries a reputation for a reason. It's like taking a very hard class, you do not fully realize the over estimation until you are in the thick of it. The contract has not been broken, it is merely more exaggerated than Hart anticipated.
I perfectly agree with Cam in that Hart made the choice to attend Harvard Law. Harvard Law is doing nothing differently for Hart than it is for any of the other students. As Cam says, Hart would never have been able to foresee every detail of Law school or how much of a challenge it would be, but nonetheless it was his choice.
DeleteI agree with Cam's statement about Hart's "dickishness" in that I think Hart's determination to succeed in any way possible has made him act like a dick sometimes, but I do not necessarily think he has become a dick.
DeleteSimilarly to what Cam just said, I don't think "dick" is the appropriate word simply because I never use it but definitely a sycophantic "ideal" Harvard Law student. It is very clear now that Hart just wants to show off his growing, wrinkly brain, and doesn't say the answers to check himself but rather to put others on check. He climbs over people like shutting down Kevin. I agree with many people that it is not bad he has developed a wonderful studying habit, but rather the attitude he takes on it. He uses his knowledge to put others below him. In the beginning of the book I had more sympathy towards him because he was innocent. He never deliberately did something selfish up until now. Everything he says is for his own benefit and he doesn't really try to teach others.
ReplyDeleteSimilarly to what Molly said, I think Kingsfield’s teaching method is very justifiable. Whether or not the students are humiliated mostly depends on how self-confident the student is not on if Kingsfield pushes them to expand and elaborate. On the contrary, having a pushy teacher motivates or at least in a normal world should motivate the students to push themselves to do better. Kingsfield is no sadist. Sure he may feel pleased when he pushes someone outside of their comfort zone, but not because he is “inflicting pain”, but because he knows they can get something out of it. He is a rational thinker, so he’s had 30 years to think about this method and it’s consequences very deeply and clearly. And he has not been fired, so evidently he is successful. And I agree strongly with Zoe’s last sentence in her answer for #2 as well.
I don’t think Harvard has broken their contract with Hart. The school itself offers the courses and the resources the get the law degree. I think it is up to the students to balance what John is referring to, the “more”. Just like at Paideia, it is not required but rather an option to attend clubs, it’s the same for Hart. If he can’t seem to balance out school and life, it’s some inner turmoil he may have. Harvard is not known for it’s fun rock climbing and bonding junior and senior trips but rather for working your ass off. And that’s what Hart does, exactly what he signed up for.
1. I personally see Hart's behavior less as a transformation and more as an accumulation of stress. While he spends a good portion of this reading acting like a jerk i don't see this as a change caused by law school. What Hart does in this chapter is as a result of the accumulation of stress and insecurity that is more an individual characteristic of Hart than it is a reality caused by Law School.
ReplyDelete2. I still can't say we understand Kingsfield as a character. We have no idea what his intentions are. He could absolutely end up being a sadistic jerk, but at the moment I still give him some leeway and consider the fact that he could also just be playing the role of a strict and harsh teacher. But, that being said, he does seem to be overly harsh to students who have called no negative attention to themselves. Nothing that Kingsfield does is nice, but none of it is entirely unreasonable. When Hart doesn't turn in his essay on time he had every right to let another student step in and take charge. All in all I would say at this point we still cannot decide one way or another.
3. I am (in addition to a few others) a little confused with this question. In my opinion Harvard Law has never had any implicit contract with Hart other than to turn him into a lawyer. Which is exactly what they are doing. They do nothing but teach Hart until he can't help but to know the material and become a lawyer. No, Harvard Law is doing nothing out of the ordinary.
Guys, I apologize for my choice of term for Hart. As Karen said, it's not a term she uses, nor perhaps do others of you. So: is Hart behaving like an arrogant jerk?
Delete1. I don't think Hart is turning into a dick. I think he's learning how to be a lawyer. I agree with Jake in that he hasn't changed all that much except for now he realizes the importance of competition. I think he has a new found obsession to be perfect, but I don't think that makes him a dick. I agree with Erin in that he can be read as a know it all, but that's a little bit of what being a lawyer is about. He is learning how to be better than his competition, his opposing council, his classmates. He's toughening up rather than becoming an asshole.
ReplyDelete2. I don't think Kingsfield is a sadist. Like Ben Said, he's not the most supportive teacher but his method of teaching must have had good results in the past. I can't imagine a place like HLS would have a teacher who didn't produce good students/lawyers and allow that to go on for 30+ years. Kingsfield definitely cares about helping these students to be successful. If he didn't then he would be using his law degree to be a lawyer, not a teacher.
3. I agree with Jenny. When Hart signed up for HLS he signed up for a challenge. I think everybody understands that Harvard is hard. And it's going to push you. That's exactly what it's doing. It might be pushing him farther than he realized it could, but the school has the reputation for only having the best and the brightest for a reason. It's supposed to be the hardest school out there.
1. Law school is making Hart on the edge of his sanity, and from that stems Hart's inevitable dickishness, but he still tries to catch himself. Hart still acknowledges his mistake in calling out Kevin just as Ford did earlier in the book, and at least Hart is trying to retain his innocence. He also did not attack Bell's answer, but tried to support it because he thought that Kingsfield was picking on Bell for a wrong answer, when all he wanted was the better answer that Hart gave. Hart is still a good person, but he sometimes fails to keep up his good old Midwestern mannerisms.
ReplyDelete2. Again, I think that Kingsfield has a unique, strict process that he follows to teach his students how life is in the real world. Hart and his peers seem to believe that an intimate, personal relationship forms between a professor and his, what? 200, 300 students? Kingsfield is mass producing quality lawyers, and will just throw out those that are not up to specifications. He is incredibly nonchalant about the paper while Hart obsesses over it for weeks, and it seems to me like he and his peers fail to realize that most teachers can't afford to spend quality time with every one of their students, and they believe that they're the only important person in a wave of thousands.
3. I agree with Sohail that Hart knew what he was in for when he signed up for Harvard Law School; he prepared days in advance. Up until the paper he was cruising through the class, and it's his own fault that he became swamped with such a straightforward task. He can complain that it isn't fair as long as he wants, but in reality, this is what is to be expected of the top students at one of the top law institutions in the world.
I agree with Alex that Kingsfield is more arrogant than he is a sadist. Kingsfield shows no respect to any of his students, yet he demands the highest level of respect and attention from his students. If Kingsfield took the time to make the class personal, many of the failing students would be able to succeed in his class. But, then again, Kingsfield is "producing quality lawyers."
Delete1. I think that Hart is becoming a dick, but that is not what Harvard wants necessarily. Harvard is not trying to produce cocky assholes-- only confident lawyers. Many will ask, "Well, what's the difference?" That's just plain cynical. Hart is becoming a very knowledgable student, but as he gains this power in intelligence, he begins to look down on his fellow classmates and try to overpower them.
ReplyDelete2. Like many have said earlier, Kingsfield is not a sadist. So far, many of his strict methods seems to have a purpose. He definitely uses humilation as a tactic, but I think it's the students who are at fault for bringing down their peers. It's the teacher's job to test the students, and it's your collegues job to lift you up to perform your best. This is the truly disturbing fact in the novel. The students are bent against each other.
3. I agree with Alex: Hart shouldn't have expected Kingsfield, the strictest, most intimidation Harvard professor to give him an extra 3 weeks to right a short paper. If the students didn't want to be challenged in this way, they could've gone to another law school.Or not go into law at all. Why Harvard? Why is it so impressive when people go there? It's because it's HARD and CHALLENGING. That's why it's impressive. You cannot complain about the challenges you accept.
Hart is not becoming so much a dick as a sycophant. He is constantly trying to impress Kingsfield, even at the expense of Kevin, and spends three weeks writing a paper for him that was just intended as background information. Hart is certainly doing some things that could be seen as dick moves, but that's not what is implicit in his actions. He still is a good person on the inside, but the part of him that is being pressed to get good grades occasionally lashes out. I remember Ryan Martin telling us that at the school he first taught at, they would post the GPA of each and every student on a bulletin board in the commons, in order of superiority. This created so much competition that students would intentionally give other students wrong advice when "helping" them. Hart has not yet descended to this level, but we still see a lot of pressure being put on him to out-perform his peers.
ReplyDeleteKingsfield has a very specific method of teaching that has to be submitted to a class of well over a hundred students each year. Naturally, he has to cut corners somewhere in student-faculty relations, and this results in his being considered a very stereotypical professor type, studying contracts up in his ivory tower. He is cold, aloof, and even condescending to his students in class, because he knows that the law school will only graduate those who can put up with those sort of people anyway; it's also a teaching tool in the manner of Spartan military training: to make the class so hard that being an actual lawyer will seem like a breeze. There is a very real purpose in his class, and that is to weed out the students who don't have the chops to succeed. Kingsfield is not a sadist, but rather an opportunist.
As Kingsfield would put it, Harvard Law School has agreed to make Hart into a lawyer in exchange for the tuition that he pays the school. So far, Harvard has done well on the contract. Hart is doing his best to become a lawyer. The Law School never stipulated that it would be easy for him, and the reader knows this just as well as Hart does. In order to forge Hart anew, the school has to remove every aspect of him that won't make him a good lawyer (just like Nothung, for those of us who get the Wagner reference).
I think Hart is determined and becoming even more motivated to succeed which is making him more competitive and making him act like a dick at times. However, I do not think that he has become a dick yet so far. Many of us agreed on our blogs from yesterday that Hart was the protagonist because he is a well rounded person emotionally and educationally; and I think for him to become a “true law school dick” he would have to lose that emotional well roundedness he has.
ReplyDeleteAfter seeing Kingsfield embarrass students in class and indifferently tell Hart that he does not need him to do the paper anymore I do think he is a sadist. Kingsfield is still a mysterious character, but based on what we have seen I think it’s fair to call him sadist because it seems that he enjoys being so cruel, and gets some sort of pleasure almost from seeing the students struggle and work so hard to try to please him.
I do not think that Harvard Law School has broken a contract with Hart. However, I do think that the school is pushing this “contract” to the edge, by pushing Hart so hard academically. Hart new it was not going to be easy in law school, but didn’t expect Kingsfield’s kind of class, no one did.
Hart is no doubt a dick. He is controlled by primal competitiveness. It clouds his vision like blinders on carriage horses, and in some way Hart has become a mere carriage horse, struggling to maintain a rhythm that isn't even expected of him. Arrogance has started to quietly inhabit the depths of his brain, creeping out in situations of confidence. His selfishness is disguised by the desire to "save" Kevin, but in fact he simply wants the recognition for his superior knowledge.
ReplyDeleteSadism is not the term I would use to describe Kingsfield directly. He does not seem to take pleasure from teaching. It's almost as if he's immune to the feelings of his students. He's a stone-cold megalomaniac. Humiliation seems to simply be his preferred method of teaching, whether it be due to tradition or genuine belief that he is preparing the students for real-life courtroom situations.
Harvard Law School holds the promise of success. It has the reputation for being exceptionally difficult. It is a super-human demand, at the forefront of educational evolution and work ethic. Harvard has not broken any kind of contract. Teachers hold your hand until high school, but come college, especially law school, there's nobody to coach you along. This is the real thing. The only broken promise has not yet been broken. Hart is yet to try to find a job. That will be the real test, but it has nothing to do with Harvard. It's not the school that guarantees a future, its the student. Hart has enough spirit to be in demand, it's Harvard that is daring the life from him day by day.
I agree. I think Hart is becoming the competitive Dick that the school is trying to make him. He is starting to talk over the others and takes advantage of Kevin's inability to talk in front of the class. He is hard to susan, no feeling what so ever and he is slowly becoming a non empathetic asshole. I have to say to Anna that I would be that person who would ask what is the difference. They are training them to solely see the facts. No the person behind the case or the people suffering from the things they are doing. Now i do agree that Harvard is not trying to make "cocky assholes" out of people in their "personal life" like the way Hart acts with susan, but I truly think that HLS is trying to produce someone who has no friends in the courtroom, in the classroom in this case, and has no fears, and no feelings toward crushing someone they call a friend outside of the court/class room.
ReplyDeleteI do not think Kingsfield is sadistic at all. He does not give Hart the paper so he can fail, I truly think that he believes that Hart wille either complete the paper or learn from his mistakes. I also do not think he is sadistic in teaching either. He does no call on Kevin because he knows Kenvin will not answer the question, it actually seems like Kingsfield does not even know who he is, I do not think that he is sadistic, I think he is the Judge in his classroom, and those who he calls on are the lawyers and he expects them to present their cases.
I am really not sure yet. LIke isabella said, Harvard law school promises success and the ability to be a good lawyer when one leaves, so I do not know if it lives up to its promise yet. Until he graduates and is attempting to find a job, or in the middle of presenting a case that is when we will see if Harvard Law School has broken its promise or fulfilled it and helped Hart succeed. And again like Isabella said, the school promises these things, but the student must help, they cannot just simply sit back and let HLS happen to them, they will not get anywhere. They have to put as much effort into the school as the professors have and the only way they will reap the rewards of HLS is if the work their asses off and do something.
1. I agree. As the book keeps moving on, we see Hart becoming colder and harsher with each chapter. He is competitive. That time when Kevin couldn’t answer and he shot his hand up and yelled “Really!” really exemplifies that. He is starting to become very arrogant, thinking he can do whatever he wants. He goes up to Kingsfield and almost brags. While not completely there, I feel like he is becoming a dick.
ReplyDelete2. Kingfield is definitely a sadistic bastard. He picks on people in class, embarrasses and humiliates them in front of their peers, and moves on to the next one. I feel that when he assigned that paper to Hart, he knew he wasn’t going to finish it, or at least have a lot of trouble. We see that right after hart brags a little to Kingsfield about his “superior”” knowledge in comparison to his classmates, Kingsfield decides to assign this paper. I think it was to calm that arrogance and put Hart back in his place. And then there’s Kevin. Kevin who is pushed to the edge, and always made fun of.
3. Harvard Law School’s implicit contract is to make a lawyer out of Hart in exchange for tuition. And it’s doing a pretty good job. Kinda. It is almost breaking that contract, because Hart, and all the other kids (particularly Kevin) are being pushed to the edge academically like they never have before.
I don't think that Hart is turning into a dick. The only time I see him being one, is when he gets up late for class and goes to Susan's house to blow up. But even that scene confused me, because one second Susan is understanding and kind and the other she blows up at him and dumps milk on him. I had to read the scene another few times and I'm still wondering what's wrong with the people in this book.
ReplyDeleteKingsfield is definitely mean, but I wouldn't go so far as to call him a sadist. I still think everything he does is teaching the students important lessons. Kingsfield obviously knows that "liberty" Bell thinks he knows everything, so Kingsfield decides to make Bell more humble.
I don't really understand the question, because the only contract I can think of so far is that Harvard promised to make a lawyer out of Hart, and so far I think Harvard is doing a good job. The only other contract I can think of, is that Harvard is constantly pushing the boundaries of the students ability to accurately complete schoolwork. In both cases, Harvard seems to be dominating.
1.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, Hart is on his way to becoming such a person, but he is teetering on the edge at the moment. Hart continues to try to save his "friends" from Kingsfield's wrath. One misstep could send him tumbling down that path, but for now I think he is really doing his best to keep being himself, despite the pressure otherwise.
2.
I don't believe this describes Kingsfield accurately. Yes he is strict and cruel, but it is part of his teaching process. Considering the length of his teaching career at HLS, he must produce results.
The only time we've really seen him is in the classroom, and I don't think that's enough to stamp him with this
3.
I agree with Sohail in the fact that Hart knew he was going to have a rough time at Harvard Law School. It is supposed to be a challenge; you don't sign up for the most prestigious law school in the country and expect it to be a walk in the park.
What I'd like for everyone to do is come back to the blog and respond to an answer by someone in your class: agree, disagree, add to, complement. I'm wanting you all to actually read what your classmates are saying (not that you aren't already) and let them know you're thinking about what they're saying.
1. I think Hart is becoming a dick (but more of a rude person) and in my opinion he is in a way resembling Kingsfield's behavior. He is so caught up in pleasing his professor that he has no care for nothing or no one else. We see and example when he snaps at Susan. He has gone from a shy and scared character to this strong and good student who loves class and what he is learning. He is no longer afraid to answer or evne stand up to Kingsfield, we see this when he defends Bell. He is also confident in his skills to do the special assignment essay.
ReplyDeleteI dont think Kingsfield is a sadist. The way he treats the students is his method and f he has always done it and continues to follow his methods it must be working and is successful. He may be passive agressive but it is not always intended to hurt or cause pain. He does it to prove points and to teach these students to always be sharp and on their feet. They have to beleive in themselves and know their material because they can not just catch some things in class and ignore others.
I agree with those who said Hart new he would be challenged and he accepted his fate. But in my opinion there isn't really a contract between the school and Hart, because an agreement was never done. Hart has the freedom of going to class or skipping, and it is up to him of he wants to learn.